View Poll Results: Are Unions Still Viable?

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  • Yes

    27 48.21%
  • No

    16 28.57%
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    13 23.21%
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Thread: Are Unions Still Viable?

  1. #11
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    Re: Are Unions Still Viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yeah, I"ve seen that claim before, and if you like I can match it with plenty of studies that demonstrate flaws in the claim that RTW laws have negative impacts on wages. What I also notice about Dr Lafer right here is that he ignores superior job growth in RTW states, higher cost of living in non-RTW sates, and higher unemployment in non-RTW states.
    By all means - lets see your studies. When you fail to cite them or link to them nameless studies by nameless people are not evidence.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Are Unions Still Viable?

    I see it as a business cycle. First it swings too far one way and then too far back. Unions affect all worker's paychecks and their threat keeps Corporations in check. That is a needed check. When Unions go too far, the results are what we see occurring today. When fully fed both Corporations and Unions are evil, pusillanimous scumbags.

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    Re: Are Unions Still Viable?

    I think that unions can still do useful things. For example, my mom was a teacher for several years, and was in the teacher's union, and she told me that they campaigned a lot to keep class sizes and student:teacher ratios low, which I see as a good thing. On the other hand, unions also cause problems. In some cases they push too hard to get benefits for their membership, and it ends up hurting the companies they work for pretty badly. I don't think that they're necessary in the way they were back in the early 1900s either.
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  4. #14
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    Re: Are Unions Still Viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    By all means - lets see your studies. When you fail to cite them or link to them nameless studies by nameless people are not evidence.


    William Moore: “The empirical evidence accumulated in the 1970s and 1980s indicates that Right to Work laws do not have strong lasting effects on wages. Most researchers find that Right to Work laws have no impact on union wages, nonunion wages, or average wages”

    David Kendrick found that the after tax income of workers in RTW states was $1,145 higher than in non-RTW states.

    The Mackinac Center saw a number of interesting statistics arise:

    From 1977 through 1999, Gross State Product (GSP), the market value of all goods and services produced in a state, increased 0.5 percent faster in RTW states than in non-RTW states. Michigan’s GSP grew at roughly half the rate of RTW states.

    Employment grew almost 1 percent faster each year, on average, in RTW states. Employment in Michigan grew only half as fast as employment in RTW states.

    Manufacturing employment grew 1.7 percent faster in RTW states. Right-to-work states created 1.43 million manufacturing jobs, while non-RTW states lost 2.18 million manufacturing jobs. Michigan lost more than 100,000 manufacturing jobs during this period, performing even worse than many other non-RTW states.

    Construction employment grew 1 percent faster each year, on average, in RTW states. Michigan ranked 32nd in the nation in this category.

    From 1978 through 2000, average annual unemployment was 0.5 percent lower in RTW states. Unemployment in Michigan was 2.3 percent higher than in RTW states.

    Per-capita disposable income was 0.2 percent higher, on average, in RTW states. Michigan’s rate of increase in this category matched the average for other non-RTW states. Although nominal per-capita disposable income was 10 percent higher in non-RTW states in 2000, research shows that the cost of living is also higher in these states; so high, in fact, that after-tax purchasing power—real income—is greater in RTW states.

    Unit labor costs—the measure of labor compensation relative to labor productivity—were 93.2 in RTW states and 98.1 in non-RTW states in 2000. Michigan, at 109.2, had the second highest unit labor costs in the nation that same year, exceeding all but New Jersey.

    The percentage of families living in poverty in RTW states dropped from 18.3 percent to 11.6 percent between 1969 and 2000. During this same period, seven states saw increases in poverty, all non-RTW states. Michigan was among them, with a poverty increase of 0.6 percent, ranking it 45th among the states in poverty rate improvement.

    Income inequality rose in both RTW and non-RTW states between 1977 and 2000. But while this inequality was greater in RTW states in 1977, by 2000 the situation had reversed...

    Right-to-work laws increase labor productivity by requiring labor unions to earn the support of each worker, since workers are able to decide for themselves whether or not to pay dues. This greater accountability results in unions that are more responsive to their members and more reasonable in their wage and work rule demands..


    etc. so on and so forth.

  5. #15
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    Re: Are Unions Still Viable?

    The report from the Mackinaw Center has been thoroughly discredited as being little better than junk science. In this state, anything with the name Mackinaw Center on it is immediately recognized for the far right propaganda that it is. I have already provided you with the detailed report from Dr. Lafer. In it he has an extensive analysis of the Mackinaw Center report and points out in detail their failures in both methodology and in application.

    You list three sources - the first and the second are badly out of date and fail to take in the last dozen years of economic development particularly the effect of foreign migration of business.

    The Moore study is 14 years old - it is looking at an era that is now ancient history.
    The Wilson study is also badly dated and is ten years old and looking back even father than that.
    The Mackinaw report simply is regurgitated Wilson writings from the second report.

    Dr. Lafer uses up to date current data and thus has far more validity than the badly out of date stuff you cited.
    Last edited by haymarket; 09-30-12 at 09:20 AM.
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  7. #17
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    Re: Are Unions Still Viable?

    Your studies were out of date - badly out of date. They are measuring conditions and an era which no longer exists in America.
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  8. #18
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    Re: Are Unions Still Viable?

    You quote the first paragraph of a USA Today article that continues with the following sentences - why didn't you post them?

    The big drivers of red state income growth: energy and government benefit payments such as food stamps.

    By contrast, Democratic blue states are more affluent but were hit harder by the downturn. Connecticut, dependent on the financial industry, suffered the largest income drop except swing-state Nevada. Yet Connecticut residents still make $10,000 a year more on average than people in fast-growing North Dakota.

    Why I do believe one might see cpwill's C&P as a bit of quote mining
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  9. #19
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    Re: Are Unions Still Viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your studies were out of date - badly out of date. They are measuring conditions and an era which no longer exists in America.
    yes, economic laws have changed mysteriously for no particular reason in the last decade or so.

  10. #20
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    Re: Are Unions Still Viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yes, economic laws have changed mysteriously for no particular reason in the last decade or so.
    Laws? Who passed them?

    You use reports that are a decade out of date and fail to take in the changes wrought by foreign outsourcing and you get all whiny when I point it out.

    Too bad.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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