View Poll Results: Where do you draw the line? Who would you help? You can choose more than one

Voters
62. You may not vote on this poll
  • Physically or Mentally Handicapped

    53 85.48%
  • Cant seem to keep a job. Too tired to get up

    6 9.68%
  • Developmentally Handicapped

    48 77.42%
  • Poor who truely need help

    43 69.35%
  • All the poor no matter what the circumstance

    19 30.65%
  • Too obese or depressed to work

    7 11.29%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Helping the Needy and the Poor

  1. #41
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by GmH View Post
    A friend of mine has an older son 40 something to be exact. He is on SSI. He is too drepressed to deal with a job or to deal with life in general. He is not too depressed to buy a car. He is not too depressed to buy a boat. He is not too depressed too move from Idaho to South Carolina....all by his little 0l' self. He is not too depressed to go fishing all day and water sking all summer. His 73 old mother works to help support him.... This are the ones that drive Republicans crazy.

    I will gladly, gladly, gladly give you a helping hand when you are truely needy, help you get on your feet, make sure you are clothed and do not go hungry. I draw the line at helping you when you sit on your butt all day and fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    WE DO NOT want the needy thrown off welfare, we want the bums like the one above thrown off welfare
    Is he comitting fraud?
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  2. #42
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Thoughtful post...I agree with most of what you've said. If you re-read my post, you'll see I was referring to Social Security Disability -- and had strictly adults in mind when I wrote it. Tom's a taxi driver. The stories he tells about his "disabled" clients would curl your hair.
    Yes I understood that but SSI is as close as I have ever gotten to the disability process. My point is that Bush I in conjunction with then Senator Dole re-wrote the old turnstile method we use to have and replaced it with a more Proove it type system. Bush II took it a step further and made it almost impossible to get passed the paperwork and beaurocrats. This was for the whole Social Security mess. But I am not saying that fraud does not exist it does and it is probably more prevailent in some places than others. I am saying that it is just not as much as most people think (media hype). I used my son and the others on SSI (not the same as SSD) as examples. If I got carried away my apologizes.
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

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  3. #43
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I wasn't directly involved with my brother's financial situation, and won't be for hopefully some time, so I could entirely be mistaken as to the severity of the situation. I was more or less astonished that here was this young guy who wanted to work (I mean, wanted to work), but had to be that guy walking a tightrope between two skyscrapers. Heaven forbid he makes just a tiny bit more money, because then they would pull out the rug from underneath him and what was already a straight loss of expenses (my family continues to fund a large part of his life) would become completely untenable. He would likely never in his lifetime be a fully-independent person due to: being under guardianship, never be able to fund his own services (let alone medical expenses) at the same time as fund his living expenses. So really the best he could financially do is be a loss financially, but a loss that would be able to feel some sense of independence like any American citizen wants to have/usually gets. It's something I take to heart, and something I could never stress enough: the value of independence and getting as close as one can to being just like a regular citizen of this country. It's not a significant demand, but it is a justified one.

    He would have to choose between being able to fund what limited time he has with staff on one hand, and on the other, being able to live independently from my parents and hold a job doing God's honest work. Again, hopeless pauperism or a shimmer of independence and pride in his own life. That's a pretty stark choice.
    Yup. I still fund a large portion of my brother's living expenses. He want's more independence, but in order to get that, he would be placed in an untenable situation.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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  4. #44
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This isn't exactly true, Fiddy. It's WORSE than that. My brother is on SSI. He can keep his benefits if he works a certain amount. If he works ONE DOLLAR over that amount, he receives NOTHING. The SSI plus his part time job allow him to live independently, pay rent, buy food, etc... Without the SSI, he would be unable to do any of those things, would need to go into government subsidized housing and go on welfare. A pro-rated system would be far better for him. It would encourage him to work more, become more independent, etc... But the way the system is set up, this cannot happen.

    The system needs an overhaul. All or nothing doesn't work. It doesn't encourage anyone to get off assistance.
    That is precisely correct. The current system punishes people for attempting to do better, making it almost impossible for people to increase their station in life. For those with kids, its' hard to justify harming them in order to maintain ones' pride. We trap people in poverty and then many blame them for remaining there.

    which is why I think we need a Negative Income Tax, in order to ensure that you NEVER net lose disposable income by increasing ones' work-related income.

  5. #45
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The op is probably referring to disability, and there are many people on it who are able-bodied, and just gaming the system.
    I hate it when people say "there are many people on it". It tends to present the image that the "majority" of people are scamming the system and thus it should be eliminated. There are always going to be people who try to scam the system, no matter what it is.

    Some of the most heinous scammers tend to be those running big business. Often costing people far more money than some guy who is sitting there collecting a disability check.
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
    - Abraham Lincoln

    Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

    God, how patient are Thy poor! These corporations and masters of manipulation in finance heaping up great fortunes by a system of legalized extortion,
    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

  6. #46
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    I hate it when people say "there are many people on it". It tends to present the image that the "majority" of people are scamming the system and thus it should be eliminated. There are always going to be people who try to scam the system, no matter what it is.

    Some of the most heinous scammers tend to be those running big business. Often costing people far more money than some guy who is sitting there collecting a disability check.

  7. #47
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm not disagreeing that there is a large amount spent on "welfare" programs. In fact that is what you would expect when a country goes into a recession. What I am arguing is this idea that somehow there is a large portion of people collecting things like disability that are scamming the system. There simply isn't, and to say that these programs are bad because of a few bad apples is just ridiculous.
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
    - Abraham Lincoln

    Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

    God, how patient are Thy poor! These corporations and masters of manipulation in finance heaping up great fortunes by a system of legalized extortion,
    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

  8. #48
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    I'm not disagreeing that there is a large amount spent on "welfare" programs. In fact that is what you would expect when a country goes into a recession. What I am arguing is this idea that somehow there is a large portion of people collecting things like disability that are scamming the system. There simply isn't, and to say that these programs are bad because of a few bad apples is just ridiculous.
    ABC News: Medicare Fraud Alone Costs More Than $60Bn A Year

    Majority? I don't know - depends on how you define. Do at least large minorities of people on these programs not need them? Yes. Look above if you need the anecdotal evidence; here you have two people who could be earning more money but who can't because the structure of the program punishes them for doing so.

  9. #49
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ABC News: Medicare Fraud Alone Costs More Than $60Bn A Year

    Majority? I don't know - depends on how you define. Do at least large minorities of people on these programs not need them? Yes. Look above if you need the anecdotal evidence; here you have two people who could be earning more money but who can't because the structure of the program punishes them for doing so.
    Based on that article, it just enforces my point. The most costly of the scams are perpetrated by those at the top, rather than the individual.

    "Fraudulent pharmacies, clinics and medical supply companies seem to pop up like mushrooms in South Florida, the area widely considered to be ground zero in the fight against a crime that requires little training and involves few risks."
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
    - Abraham Lincoln

    Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

    God, how patient are Thy poor! These corporations and masters of manipulation in finance heaping up great fortunes by a system of legalized extortion,
    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

  10. #50
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    Re: Helping the Needy and the Poor

    ...that's not really "the top". The point was more to demonstrate that the systems' ability to curb fraud was negligable, and that the cost of fraud was indeed significant.

    The Recession ended in June of 2009; but the numbers of on SNAP are up 46% since Obama took office. You're going to have to color me pretty skeptical that there hasn't been a push to put as many people as possible in the position of receiving government benefit, regardless of whether or not they absolutely needed it.

    System wide, many people are indeed trapped against the welfare cliffs that have been described. Why would you work harder or longer if doing so would mean a reduction in income?

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