View Poll Results: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

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  • Yes

    20 58.82%
  • No

    7 20.59%
  • Eliminate just some of them(please comment on which ones and why)

    7 20.59%
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Thread: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Revenue isn't raised by the rates as much as it is by the strength (or rather I would even say bubbling) of the economy/financial/credit markets. What happens to revenue when you raise or lower taxes is dependent/dynamic thing. It is conceivable (though not a given) that revenue could increase concurrently with a tax cut OR a tax hike. We saw both of these phenomena during Clinton's term: he raised income taxes and revenue jumped, then he cut taxes (the capital gains) and it REALLY jumped.

    Sure..the strength of the economy is a large determinant of how much revenue the government brings in. It defies math to believe that a lower tax rate will bring in more revenue unless you believe those tax rates are a major determinant of the strength of the economy.

    That is not proven. It's repeated as gospel on the right but GDP growth rates over time are pretty constant....higher taxes or lower taxes.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Sure..the strength of the economy is a large determinant of how much revenue the government brings in. It defies math to believe that a lower tax rate will bring in more revenue unless you believe those tax rates are a major determinant of the strength of the economy.

    That is not proven. It's repeated as gospel on the right but GDP growth rates over time are pretty constant....higher taxes or lower taxes.
    Nothing is universally proven, basically because we can't predict the future. Theoretically could lower taxes and completely reincentivize business growth in the US, and slow or reverse the flood of jobs out of the US. Or we could raise taxes and then see something trigger another massive recession, and what little money people are still making is being increasingly taxed, leaving them feeling much, much more conservative about spending, investing, expanding, etc., leading to even lower revenues. What I think we need is more set, stable, fair way to tax. Simplify the tax code and don't play favorites with it. Don't think of it as a way to punish bad behavior or install a bunch of "incentives" for people to buy houses or cars or whatever the hell. Base it on consumption and that's that. Or base it on income and apply it across the board with no deductions or credits or special favors or perks. Get health care the hell out of the tax code for ****'s sake. Simplify, standardize and flatten. Give everyone the same exact incentive to earn another dollar and invest in our own people.

    But don't fall for the fallacy that tax cuts OR hikes = economic growth or "economic justice." Tax rate hike is not the same as a tax revenue hike.

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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You presumed that someone paying 220 for registration and living with friends is deserving of sympathy, and sought to use that narration as political rhetoric.
    Well I don't know if she lived with anyone else or if she was simply struggling to keep her current situation in place. The conversion she was having with her friends it was unclear where exactly she was at the moment on that front. I can only assume that they all knew of the situation and were basing their conversion on this and other known information as it was left out of the conversion.

    I am also using it only to reach a wider audience than I otherwise would have without it.

  4. #24
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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    I like a lot of your post and agree with some of it but definately respect the views of the parts I don't necessarily agree with. I strongly agree with the part about playing favorites in the tax codes. I would like to point out some parts I strongly disagree with.

    Nothing is universally proven, basically because we can't predict the future. Theoretically could lower taxes and completely reincentivize business growth in the US, and slow or reverse the flood of jobs out of the US. Or we could raise taxes and then see something trigger another massive recession, and what little money people are still making is being increasingly taxed, leaving them feeling much, much more conservative about spending, investing, expanding, etc.,
    You can't predict the future but you can sure as hell look at the past. There's a long history of tax cuts and tax hikes to look at.

    But don't fall for the fallacy that tax cuts OR hikes = economic growth or "economic justice." Tax rate hike is not the same as a tax revenue hike.
    It is the same unless you honestly think a tax cut equals a large spur in economic growth to offset the lowering of rates.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    You can't predict the future but you can sure as hell look at the past. There's a long history of tax cuts and tax hikes to look at.
    The hints we take from the past have to keep in mind some of the major economic factors about the past that no longer apply. Comparing monetary policy from the 19th century to today's monetary policies is difficult because we now have a federal reserve and a fiat currency. That makes a HUGE difference. Comparing income tax rates from the 50s to the tax rates today is difficult because we were post-WWII but pre-globalization. That's a HUGE difference.

    It is the same unless you honestly think a tax cut equals a large spur in economic growth to offset the lowering of rates.
    In theory it most certainly could, in the very same way that any other stimulus could. The COST of a stimulus has be to offset by the economic activity it stirs up. It simply does not do this in every case. We're seeing that right now. In that sense it works just like any other stimulant (e.g. coffee, amphetamines, etc.). You enjoy one of your first coffees, it can wake you up, give you all sorts of energy, focus, etc. But if you keep drinking and drinking it, more frequently and in higher and higher quantities, it eventually loses its potency, and eventually you'll have issues with tolerance, dependence and withdrawal and the "fix" becomes the new problem.

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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    The hints we take from the past have to keep in mind some of the major economic factors about the past that no longer apply. Comparing monetary policy from the 19th century to today's monetary policies is difficult because we now have a federal reserve and a fiat currency. That makes a HUGE difference. Comparing income tax rates from the 50s to the tax rates today is difficult because we were post-WWII but pre-globalization. That's a HUGE difference.
    I agree...for the most part. We still have decades to compare to we can also compare with tax policies to other countries. Conservatives point to Sweden and I agree with the fact that Sweden lowering their top rate from something like 90% to 75% increased revenue. At the extreme yes it can make an impact. At the same time we can point to nations like Germany with higher rates who are definately competitive with the US when it comes to growth. I have no problem with people arguing over tax policy. That's how we should determine tax policy...through debate over the merits and costs over changes to the tax code. My issue is this crazy idea that lower taxes have this massive upside (spur economic growth) and no downside (lower taxes offset by that growth). That's just wrong. It's a faulty "have your cake and eat" it view.

    In theory it most certainly could, in the very same way that any other stimulus could. The COST of a stimulus has be to offset by the economic activity it stirs up. It simply does not do this in every case. We're seeing that right now. In that sense it works just like any other stimulant (e.g. coffee, amphetamines, etc.). You enjoy one of your first coffees, it can wake you up, give you all sorts of energy, focus, etc. But if you keep drinking and drinking it, more frequently and in higher and higher quantities, it eventually loses its potency, and eventually you'll have issues with tolerance, dependence and withdrawal and the "fix" becomes the new problem.
    I do agree that differnt measures are more effective in different situations. I hold the view of the President...that tax cuts have become the cure all to the right. The problem with the rights "cure all" is it's not even related to the symptoms. We have a demand problem not a capital investment problem. Tax cuts for the middle class have an impact but there's not companies out there starving for capital.

    As for a stimulus...there are times a stimulus wouldn't be beneficial. The thing is economist on the left agree with that.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  7. #27
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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    I have always thought it was against our country's base policy to tax social security. It is not really an income but a tax which we paid into our whole lives and are now getting back. It is nice to see that some states are starting to get the message and don't tax social security checks with State taxes.

    It is unfair to tax a tax
    "Those who do not learn from history and condemned to relive it".

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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    I have always thought it was against our country's base policy to tax social security. It is not really an income but a tax which we paid into our whole lives and are now getting back. It is nice to see that some states are starting to get the message and don't tax social security checks with State taxes.

    It is unfair to tax a tax
    I always thought it was interesting the views you get on supporting taxing social security. Now before I begin I should mention I don't support social security, but its always interesting that the people that do will say the elderly need and deserve the income but because its income it needs to be taxed. This seems like a rather large contradiction to me. If they need it and deserve it than why don't they need and deserve it in full? If I am to believe their basic views on the progressive income tax system and why they believe income should be taxed this seems to be something they would not agree with, but for some reason they fail to uphold their view on the poor not being taxed in such a fashion in this case. It always just goes back to the idea that the state needs revenue, but why? So the state needs revenue and in order to get that revenue they are taxing money that was supposedly designed to not able to be used for other government expenses and this is something they are rather upset about if done so on the way in, but why not on the way out? How very interesting. Its like its fine if we use it for other government expenses when we give it back out but its not fine when we are putting it in to begin with. I don't really understand the difference one way or the other and why if you were going to pick which is acceptable you would pick the way out and not the way in as the acceptable time to use it for other expenses.

    I do however agree it is rather ridiculous to tax a tax.
    Last edited by Henrin; 09-21-12 at 11:24 PM.

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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is all just revolving around the rich though as if the amount you have is somehow important here to it being an acceptable avenue or not. I do not believe such things matter to the overall question.
    What matters is that a person who OWNS proerty should have have to have continus income to KEEP that property.
    This should extend ONLY to a primary home......and not a super mansion or 2nd home.

    Look at the women that lost her home for a $300 water bill.............

    in a world like this who is DUMB ENOUGH to buy a "home"......

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    Re: Should we eliminate taxes that tax you for the right to own property?

    And if we eliminate these taxes, what do we replace them with?
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