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Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

Why are today's poor more miserable?


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  • Poll closed .

Neomalthusian

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I ask this with the underlying questions being, "What is it about poverty that we should be trying to resolve? Is it more important for those in poverty to organize and demand that their poverty be somehow eradicated...

...or is it more important for those in poverty to find ways to feel empowered, fulfilled, and independent, despite their limited means?
 
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We're more materialistic than at any point in the past. Gotta keep up with the Joneses.
 
What's your evidence that the poor ARE more miserable than a century ago? As far as I know opinion polling didn't really get started until about 1948...and even then, they wouldn't have sliced and diced the demographics like that until much later.
 
Select all that apply.

I ask this with the underlying questions being, "What is it about poverty that we should be trying to resolve? Is it more important for those in poverty to organize and demand that their poverty be somehow eradicated...

...or is it more important for those in poverty to find ways to feel empowered, fulfilled, and independent, despite their limited means?

The latter is more important, but they go hand in hand. If you can eliminate their poverty (e.g. provide them with enough food, education, health care, and shelter) then it will typically lead to feeling more empowered, fulfilled, and independent.
 
The latter is more important, but they go hand in hand. If you can eliminate their poverty (e.g. provide them with enough food, education, health care, and shelter) then it will typically lead to feeling more empowered, fulfilled, and independent.

It doesn't appear that this has happened, as a general rule, for the past 40-50 years. You can't give someone money, or meet their basic needs, and then declare that their poverty has disappeared, because much of poverty is a way of thinking and behaving.
 
What's your evidence that the poor ARE more miserable than a century ago?

I gave folks an option to dispute that they are in the first place. It's option #8.

The latter is more important, but they go hand in hand. If you can eliminate their poverty (e.g. provide them with enough food, education, health care, and shelter) then it will typically lead to feeling more empowered, fulfilled, and independent.

What? How would it do that? If they are provided with it, rather than obtain it for themselves, what about that is empowering, fulfilling, or independent? That makes no sense whatsoever.
 
It doesn't appear that this has happened, as a general rule, for the past 40-50 years. You can't give someone money, or meet their basic needs, and then declare that their poverty has disappeared, because much of poverty is a way of thinking and behaving.

I agree that it's a way of thinking and behaving...but those ways of thinking and behaving didn't just emerge from nowhere. They emerged as a mechanism for tolerating poverty. For example, if you grow up in a community where everyone you know is unemployed or works a crappy job, it reduces the perceived value of an education because you're less likely to be able to recognize that there are better employment options for people like you. Similarly, having kids at a young age carries less of an economic cost, if your economic prospects are pretty dim to begin with.

The part of the equation that we've generally failed to provide in the last 40-50 years is the education (along with safety). There are many horrible schools in this country where it is nearly impossible to get an education.
 
What? How would it do that? If they are provided with it, rather than obtain it for themselves, what about that is empowering, fulfilling, or independent? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, think of it this way: Suppose you're a child. If your parents provide you with enriching activities (e.g. signing you up for Little League, getting you educational computer programs, taking you on vacations, teaching you how to do things) do you think you will be MORE or LESS likely to grow up to feel empowered, fulfilled, and independent, than if your parents basically ignore you? Even though your parents are providing you with those things instead of making you earn them, they tend to have positive results on your wellbeing.

I think it's the same basic concept for society providing people with necessities like an education, food, health care, etc. You don't feel empowered if you're denied those things...you feel empowered when you no longer have to worry about them.
 
Hahahaha... WHAT?

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These are the poor a century ago. Dying from diarrhea, no job prospects, discriminated against, resorting to prostitution is not an option but a necessity. How... the hell are the poor today more miserable today than a century ago?
 
In the US? The poor are worse off in 2012 than they were in 1912, or earlier?

Did they have Medicaid in 1912? Could they walk into an Emergency Room and get guaranteed medical treatment in 1912?

Did they have Food Stamps, or Section 8 housing in 1912?

Did their kids get subsidized or free breakfasts and lunch at school in 1912? Did their kids get free vaccinations in 1912?

I could keep going, but you should get the point by now... I hope.

In 2012, there is more opportunity for the poor to work, educate and train their way out of poverty. More support from local government, charities as well as state and federal programs.

I know it isn't the PC thing to say, but some folks are just not capable of... well, of doing much anything. It's sad, but true.

Currently, the level of poor has increased for many reasons, most of which are not particularly their fault. But, many made bad choices and are paying for those choices now. Be it buying a house they couldn't afford, or not saving money for the lean times, or investing in the market and having all disappear. No one made them buy that house, or spend every cent they made, or put their money in the market, or any other choice they made. As I said, some are there by no fault of their own. They saved as much as they could on their low wage job, and after they lost their job, the money didn't last long.

To say, however, that they are worse off now than they were in 1912 or earlier, is just not a logical conclusion, and is not supported by the facts.

Of course, the poll does say miserable, not worse off.

So if it is the misery index we're talking about, IMO it has to do with self respect more than anything else. In 1912, the poor had to fend for themselves, and if we stipulate that they are more miserable now, it has to be because they are relying on others and have less personal input in their own life status, due to this. Lack of control leads to fear and depression. Give them more control and responsibility and they will have at the very least, a feeling of having more control and less fear. IMHO.
 
Hahahaha... WHAT?

These are the poor a century ago. Dying from diarrhea, no job prospects, discriminated against, resorting to prostitution is not an option but a necessity. How... the hell are the poor today more miserable today than a century ago?

Maybe they aren't then. But if they're not, it's sure been made to seem like they are. How many times have we been reminded (by liberals) that "the poor are getting poorer"? I'm constantly reading sob story after sob story about the nation's poor. "And then he got sick and lost his job and so he didn't have insurance and had huge doctor bills and oh my goodness it's JUST NOT FAIR!" Of course it's not. Never has been, never will be. It sucks hardcore. But anyway, what are we to assume about the misery-level of the nation's poor with all these constant bleating reminders about the poor getting worse off and worse off, but to presume that people weren't so upset about it all back then?

In the US? The poor are worse off in 2012 than they were in 1912, or earlier?

(SNIP!)

Of course, the poll does say miserable, not worse off.

Thhhank you.

So if it is the misery index we're talking about, IMO it has to do with self respect more than anything else. In 1912, the poor had to fend for themselves, and if we stipulate that they are more miserable now, it has to be because they are relying on others and have less personal input in their own life status, due to this. Lack of control leads to fear and depression. Give them more control and responsibility and they will have at the very least, a feeling of having more control and less fear. IMHO.

Well put.
 
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Maybe they aren't then. But if they're not, it's sure been made to seem like they are. How many times have we been reminded (by liberals) that "the poor are getting poorer"? I'm constantly reading sob story after sob story about the nation's poor. "And then he got sick and lost his job and so he didn't have insurance and had huge doctor bills and oh my goodness it's JUST NOT FAIR!" Of course it's not. Never has been, never will be. It sucks hardcore. But anyway, what are we to assume about the misery-level of the nation's poor with all these constant bleating reminders about the poor getting worse off and worse off, but to presume that people weren't so upset about it all back then?

Easy on the CATO rhetoric there. I went after the claim that they were more 'miserable'. Not that they were poorer. When the claim is made that the poor are poorer it's made in comparison with poor from somewhere relatively close to this century. Not the 115 years ago parameters or vacuum you seem to claim they are compared in.
 
Easy on the CATO rhetoric there. I went after the claim that they were more 'miserable'.

You could have just selected the corresponding response in the poll.

When the claim is made that the poor are poorer it's made in comparison with poor from somewhere relatively close to this century. Not the 115 years ago parameters or vacuum you seem to claim they are compared in.

Compare them from ANY other time then, if you want. Were those who were poor in the 60s more miserable/upset about their situation than the poor are today (let's admit, not EVERYONE was middle class in the 60s)? We can't exactly KNOW, because it's a very general statement and hard to research, but we can make reasonable guesses.

I think it's hard to imagine there was ever so much complaining and psychological sense of utter, disempowered strife about it the farther back you look, even IF conditions were worse back then. Hell what did Marx say would happen?
 
You could have just selected the corresponding response in the poll.

The OP is flawed. So I didn't select anything.

Compare them from ANY other time then, if you want. Were those who were poor in the 60s more miserable/upset about their situation than the poor are today (let's admit, not EVERYONE was middle class in the 60s)? We can't exactly KNOW, because it's a very general statement and hard to research, but we can make reasonable guesses.

I don't, because that would be intellectually dishonest.

I think it's hard to imagine there was ever so much complaining and psychological sense of utter, disempowered strife about it the farther back you look, even IF conditions were worse back then. Hell what did Marx say would happen?

/CATO rhetoric ignored.
 
That. Prereq being intellectual.

I can't tell who you're trying to insult the most. This worries me and will be dealt with in the appropriate channels. To the bat cave!
 
Because they 'can' be. Because the handout systems enable them to be.
 
I can't tell who you're trying to insult the most.

The OP question/poll is insufficiently intellectual. Your posit of intellectual dishonesty is probably intellectually dishonest.
 
The OP question/poll is insufficiently intellectual. Your posit of intellectual dishonesty is probably intellectually dishonest.

Who you callin' posit? You scoundrel.
 
The latter is more important, but they go hand in hand. If you can eliminate their poverty (e.g. provide them with enough food, education, health care, and shelter) then it will typically lead to feeling more empowered, fulfilled, and independent.

that is unfortunately incorrect. your self worth, empowerment, and fulfillment come not from what you receive, but what you achieve.
 
that is unfortunately incorrect. your self worth, empowerment, and fulfillment come not from what you receive, but what you achieve.

Higher levels of self worth, empowerment, fulfillment and achievement can be achieved through receiving. You can bet there are millions of middle class people who wouldn't have the level of self worth, empowerment and fulfillment if it weren't for the social programs available to them and their parents. How many single mothers would have made anything of themselves before these programs and under a system like the one advocated by you? How many immigrants would have run successful businesses if it weren't for government help?

Again, one can argue all they want that some people take advantage of welfare etc. But the collective progress made in the last 100 years is all the proof needed to show that they serve an extremely beneficial purpose. You don't even have to go into time. Just compare the US poor to the poor in any other country that doesn't really give two ****s about its poor. Ours have the ability the move up BECAUSE of what is given to them. Countries that don't? Well Bangladesh is pretty ****ty.
 
that is unfortunately incorrect. your self worth, empowerment, and fulfillment come not from what you receive, but what you achieve.

Hmm . . . interesting.
 
Higher levels of self worth, empowerment, fulfillment and achievement can be achieved through receiving.

That is incorrect. self-esteem, empowerment, fulfillment, a sense of achievement, they all come from achievement.

You can bet there are millions of middle class people who wouldn't have the level of self worth, empowerment and fulfillment if it weren't for the social programs available to them and their parents. How many single mothers would have made anything of themselves before these programs and under a system like the one advocated by you? How many immigrants would have run successful businesses if it weren't for government help?

well the obvious answer is "all of them", considering that we are not judging off of a raw, but relative standard. but here you are arguing a misnomer, and trying to claim that later achievement = earlier receipt.

Again, one can argue all they want that some people take advantage of welfare etc.

well it's not just that - it's that we use welfare to trap them in poverty and low productivity, thereby ensuring that they will never achieve enough to reach self-fulfillment, empowerment, etc.

But the collective progress made in the last 100 years is all the proof needed to show that they serve an extremely beneficial purpose.

:lol: yeah. if there is one thing that leaps to mind about the experience with our social welfare state over the past few decades, it's "success"

success at destroying stable family formation
success at creating a permanent underclass
success at trapping people to the measure of their birth
success at taking the most dynamic, charitable, creative, industrial people to roam the earth and turning them into permanent dependents, trapped in self-destructive decisions with only resentment for those who aid them.

yeeahaw, let's have some more of that :roll:
 
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