View Poll Results: Why are today's poor more miserable?

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  • Because they don't have all their needs met.

    8 16.67%
  • Because advertising constantly reminds them of what they can't afford.

    16 33.33%
  • Because the rich are too rich!!

    7 14.58%
  • Because they (the poor) no longer farm.

    5 10.42%
  • Because they are no longer needed for manufacturing.

    4 8.33%
  • Because they're packed into cities.

    8 16.67%
  • Because welfare breeds dependence and thus resentment.

    20 41.67%
  • N/A - the poor have always been pretty equally miserable.

    12 25.00%
  • Other (explain)

    15 31.25%
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Thread: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

  1. #31
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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    And I disagree with your opinion.
    unfortunately for you, it's not my opinion, but rather the findings of social science.

    What nonsense. There is more social mobility today than ever in the history of mankind.
    In aggregate absolutely. For the narrow band of those whom we place into our welfare system, less so - although impressive gains have been had since we reformed welfare in the 90's.

    People aren't trapped in welfare systems. They're made mobile by them.
    yeah?



    how many single moms' do you know that get offered a raise from $29,000 to $70,000?

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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    I don't know if they are more miserable today, but they are far more envious. That's pretty much Obama's base.

  3. #33
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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    unfortunately for you, it's not my opinion, but rather the findings of social science.
    Two links which do... nothing? One is for a log in the other is for a study? Did you read it? It doesn't say what you want it to say. It says people who believe in AII support it. People who don't, don't.

    In aggregate absolutely. For the narrow band of those whom we place into our welfare system, less so - although impressive gains have been had since we reformed welfare in the 90's.

    yeah?



    how many single moms' do you know that get offered a raise from $29,000 to $70,000?
    Yeah:

    http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/...08/rrep450.pdf

    An international review of research on educational attainment and social mobility by Breen and Jonsson (2005) supports many of the findings reported in this section. The authors identify a mixed pattern, with some countries (e.g. Sweden and Germany) exhibiting a declining relationship between class and education attainment and others (including England) showing little change over time. It is also clear that social class is more strongly associated with educational attainment at younger ages, but that class effects persist into higher education. In most countries, education does play a ‘mediating’ role between class of origin and class of destination but many studies continue to find ‘origin effects’ that, to some extent, counteract the influence of education on social mobility. The study highlights the continued potential role of higher education in promoting absolute and relative social mobility, in the context of issues raised in this section regarding the impact of social class background on school choice, school level attainment, the decision to enter higher education, choice of institution attended and subjects studied.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #34
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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Two links which do... nothing? One is for a log in the other is for a study? Did you read it? It doesn't say what you want it to say. It says people who believe in AII support it. People who don't, don't.
    yes. and then it compares their relative results. maybe you should read further .

    ...You cite higher education in other countries in an attempt to respond to the fact that our welfare structure contains cliffs that effectively punish people for increasing their productivity and income?

  5. #35
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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yes. and then it compares their relative results. maybe you should read further .
    Can't. Need to buy the article. Wanna show us where?

    ...You cite higher education in other countries in an attempt to respond to the fact that our welfare structure contains cliffs that effectively punish people for increasing their productivity and income?
    I can't see the pic for some reason. It's just a broken link.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #36
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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Can't. Need to buy the article. Wanna show us where?
    dang I got it through an alumni association membership.

    I'll root around and get you some relevant data.

    I can't see the pic for some reason. It's just a broken link.
    you can't see this:




    ?

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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    We're more materialistic than at any point in the past.
    You nailed it!

  8. #38
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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    Ya know, as a former "poor" myself, I don't really see the poor daydreaming about yachts and mansions, or even iPads and fancy clothes. They really aren't all that materialistic.

    I see them daydreaming about not having to eat Ramen for another week, or being able to get their teeth fixed.

    Among those who are politically aware in the slightest, I see them daydreaming about finding one candidate, just ONE, who represents something other than big business and their own ego.

    Why are the poor miserable? Two reasons.

    The first is that being poor is stressful. Not knowing where your next meal is coming from, or knowing you're one stumble away from losing your home, will do that do you.

    Two is that they are voiceless. No one in our governmental arena represents them.

  9. #39
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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Higher levels of self worth, empowerment, fulfillment and achievement can be achieved through receiving. You can bet there are millions of middle class people who wouldn't have the level of self worth, empowerment and fulfillment if it weren't for the social programs available to them and their parents. How many single mothers would have made anything of themselves before these programs and under a system like the one advocated by you? How many immigrants would have run successful businesses if it weren't for government help?

    Again, one can argue all they want that some people take advantage of welfare etc. But the collective progress made in the last 100 years is all the proof needed to show that they serve an extremely beneficial purpose. You don't even have to go into time. Just compare the US poor to the poor in any other country that doesn't really give two ****s about its poor. Ours have the ability the move up BECAUSE of what is given to them. Countries that don't? Well Bangladesh is pretty ****ty.
    So lets look at your premise for just a second.

    If a person is only given things, and never accomplishes anything on their own, you say that they can have higher levels of self worth, empowerment, fulfillment and achievement.

    Lets take those one at a time.

    Self worth - a confidence and satisfaction in oneself; dignity: the quality of being worthy of esteem or respect;. This is possible regardless of whether a person receives assistance or is totally dependent on others. However, to say that a person gains higher levels of self worth through receiving is contrary to basic psychology.

    Empowerment - authorization: the act of conferring legality or sanction or formal warrant; to promote the self-actualization or influence of. This is not possible by being totally reliant upon others. If assistance is on a limited and temporary basis, and the assistance is utilized by the giver through requirement and by the recipient as a tool to empower themselves to move from assistance to independence, then and only then would or could the assistance lead to empowerment. But assistance does not and cannot achieve empowerment for a person in an of itself. So this premise is inaccurate by virtue of its basic application and definition. Empowerment is achieved by and through independent accomplishment by its very nature.

    Fulfillment - Satisfaction or happiness as a result of fully developing one's abilities or character; The achievement of something desired, promised, or predicted: "winning the championship was the fulfillment of a childhood dream"; the feeling of being happy and satisfied because you are doing something that fully uses your abilities and talents. By definition, this not applicable to your premise. No one has a dream or goal of being reliant upon others to survive.

    Achievement - A thing done successfully, typically by effort, courage, or skill; The process or fact of achieving something; a result gained by effort. I cannot for the life of me determine how a personal sense of achievement, much less a higher level, can be gained through receiving something that has not been earned by ones own effort.

    Then you conflate the good achieved through social programs by obfuscation of the negatives that reliance upon these programs can and have produced.

  10. #40
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    Re: Why are today's poor (U.S.) more miserable than a century + ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    We're more materialistic than at any point in the past. Gotta keep up with the Joneses.
    You have to have something before you get into keeping up with the jones...you have to reach a certain point...when your poor your thinking getting the basics

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