View Poll Results: Are there any examples of free speech that you believe fall under restrictions?

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  • Screaming fire and guns in a crowded auditorium/theater/church etc

    25 96.15%
  • Not acting on it yet making a film about the joys of children sexuality

    9 34.62%
  • Writing or speaking reasons why one might want to shoot or kill a candidate running for POTUS

    9 34.62%
  • Speaking inflammatory words to a culture where our troops and tax revenues are invested

    3 11.54%
  • Media produced inciting hatred while troops/citizens in that culturein order to incite violence

    5 19.23%
  • Protesting military funerals by taunting the fallen as our pay back for not being perfect

    5 19.23%
  • Making a film or writing a book about that denigrates women as not worthy except for sex services

    1 3.85%
  • Distributing a film in a country where our troops are stationed saying they represent Satan

    2 7.69%
  • Loudly bellowing sexual, political, and religious insults

    4 15.38%
  • Intentionally speaking of unproven deviant sexual inuendo of another to their community

    8 30.77%
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Thread: The First Amendment

  1. #71
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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    But, if there's a distinction between premeditated murder and murder which occurred "in the moment", why should there not be a distinction such as the hate crime?

    Using your reasoning, it shouldn't matter whether a murder was premeditated or not, but what matters in the infringement of the rights and liberties of an individual by another.
    Because premeditation is premeditation. It shouldn't matter for what reason I premeditated a murder, only that I did so and carried it out.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Every example listed is protected under the first amendment

    Lets review it again..

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    There you go.

    Excellent.

    this thread needs no more replies after this.

  3. #73
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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because premeditation is premeditation. It shouldn't matter for what reason I premeditated a murder, only that I did so and carried it out.
    Of all crimes, hate crimes are most likely to create or exacerbate tensions, which can trigger larger community-wide racial conflict, civil disturbances, and even riots. Hate crimes put cities and towns at-risk of serious social and economic consequences. The immediate costs of racial conflicts and civil disturbances are police, fire, and medical personnel overtime, injury or death, business and residential property loss, and damage to vehicles and equipment. Long-term recovery is hindered by a decline in property values, which results in lower tax revenues, scarcity of funds for rebuilding, and increased insurance rates. Businesses and residents abandon these neighborhoods, leaving empty buildings to attract crime, and the quality of schools decline due to the loss of tax revenue. A municipality may have no choice but to cut services or raise taxes or leave the area in its post-riot condition until market forces of supply and demand rebuild the area.
    Hate Crime

  4. #74
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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Tell it to Detroit. Hate Crime legislation does nothing to address the concerns you listed. If hate crime in and of itself is the source of these things, as your quote suggests, hate crime legislation cannot prevent it. Laws will not prevent crime, and with something on the level of hate crimes (which are typically emotional affairs), they will still happen and thus we should still realize the consequences listed in your quote. All you're doing is taking on additional punishment for a crime that was already a crime in the first place.

    On many level people will react illogically, but that reaction should not pervert justice. Punishment must properly reflect crime. Premeditation is premeditation. You've taken the time to think about and plan taking the life or assaulting another.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #75
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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You know the citation you posted? Well, I've read it several times and taken notes. I didn't just google and skim it right now.

    Edit: actually, I read the legislation itself, not that write-up.
    That is the law. Cornell's a pretty reliable site.

  6. #76
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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    If you paid for the act I could see an argument being made for an accessory to murder case, but this just appears to be some kind of conspiracy to commit murder. Is that actually a harm though? I'm not saying that is how the courts will see it because I know they will not, but still, is it?
    I am not sure how to reply, Henrin. If you reject conspiracy as a criminal act then of course the acts of conspirators are not criminal.

  7. #77
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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    That is the law. Cornell's a pretty reliable site.
    IIRC, it's a different section of 18USC. Not 245 but another. Ima get goin' cause I have friends waiting, but I'll try to find it later, since it appears not so easy to find. It's under 'requirements for prosecution' or something like that.

  8. #78
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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Nope, but I will get every last one of y'all.
    Are helping to build that damned accelerator in France that's gonna blow us all to Kingdom Come?

    If so, thanks a lot, buster.

  9. #79
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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    IIRC, it's a different section of 18USC. Not 245 but another. Ima get goin' cause I have friends waiting, but I'll try to find it later, since it appears not so easy to find. It's under 'requirements for prosecution' or something like that.
    I'll look too -- you've made me curious.

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    Re: The First Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Tell it to Detroit. Hate Crime legislation does nothing to address the concerns you listed. If hate crime in and of itself is the source of these things, as your quote suggests, hate crime legislation cannot prevent it. Laws will not prevent crime, and with something on the level of hate crimes (which are typically emotional affairs), they will still happen and thus we should still realize the consequences listed in your quote. All you're doing is taking on additional punishment for a crime that was already a crime in the first place.

    On many level people will react illogically, but that reaction should not pervert justice. Punishment must properly reflect crime. Premeditation is premeditation. You've taken the time to think about and plan taking the life or assaulting another.
    The federal hate crime law gives the feds jurisdiction when they otherwise would not have it. If you lack confidence in the resources or will of the local cop shop or DA, this can be seen as adding value. The feds also track hate crimes and this has value in deciding where to allocate resources, etc.

    If these laws did what they were intended to do, I'd have no heartburn about them. My complaint is every murder victim's family wants a hate crime enhancement (many states have such laws now as well) and that when a DA decides not to charge it, the family feels a measure of justice has been denied. The DA's choice -- whether or not he charges a hate crime enhancement -- can be every bit as divisive for the community as the murder itself was.

    And worst of all, the burden of proof is higher, meaning the possibility of problems of proof or even a wrongful acquittal exist, just as it would if any other element of the crime were added.

    I understand the criticism that hate crime laws criminalize thought and not acts, and thus should be unconstitutional, but I just don't find that argument persuasive.

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