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Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime?

  • Total voters
    186
X Factor said:
Try skimming the thread, then tell me I was wrong to start a discussion about this. Geez.
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There wasn't, my statement was both humorous and rhetorical.....GEEZ......:kissy:
 
Gardener said:
The movie was about the life of a historical figure (or "an" historical figure if I wish to satisfy all dictates). As such, the reaction is entirely up to those who reacted, who were not maligned directly.

What so many of you fail to understand is that the adoption of an ideology is completely a matter of choice. Sure, hundreds of millions of Muslims DO NOT see it as choice, which is part and parcel of the problem in dealing with in regards to their totalitarianism, but the fact remains that there is an enormous difference between expressing disgust with an ideology freely chosen and hate speech directed against people for those matters beyond their control. Just because you cannot understand this distinction, that doesn't mean others can't.
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No I understand the distinction but I feel like your all being a little naive if you expect people from around the world to accept being insulted just because your country allows it, this is never been the way of the world. Generally every action has a consequence and at this point anyone with an ounce of commen sense knows how the arab world is going to react and its then where you have to ask "is it worth it?"
 
:( Spud you make me sad.
 
X Factor said:
Try skimming the thread, then tell me I was wrong to start a discussion about this. Geez.
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What I find amusing is how one of the very first posts took you to task for even asking such questions in a poll, yet poster after cowardly poster answers a hearty yes in their apologist rhetoric without having the balls to answer a direct "yes" in the actual poll.
 
Higgins86 said:
No I understand the distinction but I feel like your all being a little naive if you expect people from around the world to accept being insulted just because your country allows it, this is never been the way of the world. Generally every action has a consequence and at this point anyone with an ounce of commen sense knows how the arab world is going to react and its then where you have to ask "is it worth it?"
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OMG- this has never been the way of the world? Surely you jest! :lol:
 
Higgins86 said:
No I understand the distinction but I feel like your all being a little naive if you expect people from around the world to accept being insulted just because your country allows it, this is never been the way of the world. Generally every action has a consequence and at this point anyone with an ounce of commen sense knows how the arab world is going to react and its then where you have to ask "is it worth it?"
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I don't think you do understand the distinction, Higgins.

Obviously, primitive totalitarians react negatively to having their supremacist mindsets challenged. Their violent reactions are certainly no reason to undermine one's own values, however, even if one expects these infantile rages for which they are so well known.
 
Higgins86 said:
very true in regards to the civil rights marches but could you not also argue that it was your type of "freedom of speech" that allowed white people to ban people of colour from stores, public transport, schools etc in the first place.
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It was many things all based on the law and not freedom of speech. For example, slavery was an economic necessity in the South for a period of time and not a social/legal issue. Once it became a social/legal issue freedom of speech helped effectuate the Civil rights Act of 1964.
 
Connery said:
There wasn't, my statement was both humorous and rhetorical.....GEEZ......:kissy:
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Ok, sorry. The thing is, I started the poll based on things I was reading in other threads. I expected there to be more no votes (at least I hoped so) but did not expect the "yes" people to be this dang shy.
 
X Factor said:
Ok, sorry. The thing is, I started the poll based on things I was reading in other threads. I expected there to be more no votes (at least I hoped so) but did not expect the "yes" people to be this dang shy.
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This is an excellent thread and poll. You have 334 posts and 128 votes. Thank you for coming up with this and doing the leg work...:mrgreen:
 
Gardener said:
What I find amusing is how one of the very first posts took you to task for even asking such questions in a poll, yet poster after cowardly poster answers a hearty yes in their apologist rhetoric without having the balls to answer a direct "yes" in the actual poll.
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There is some validity in saying a question like my OP shouldn't ever need to be asked, not in the US. In reality though, I think we see there is obviously room for discussion (that's me being diplomatic).
 
Connery said:
This is an excellent thread and poll. You have 334 posts and 128 votes. Thank you for coming up with this and doing the leg work...:mrgreen:
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LOL, THAT'S more like it. It has been pretty ****ing thankless. I invested a good 5 minutes into figuring out how to add the poll after I accidently posted the OP. Frankly, I'm drained.
 
Gardener said:
I don't think you do understand the distinction, Higgins.

Obviously, primitive totalitarians react negatively to having their supremacist mindsets challenged. Their violent reactions are certainly no reason to undermine one's own values, however, even if one expects these infantile rages for which they are so well known.
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again I understand it I just dont think agree with you.

Many people on this planet have different customs and beleif systems you can go to many Asian households and you will be expected to take your shoes off, in some parts of the world you stop your car for a Cow not kill it and in other places its rude to shake hands with your left. These are all customs and beliefs that you are expected to follow when your in these countries as a sign of respect and if you dont follow certain customs it can have very bad consequences. In the arab Muslim world it is a insult to potray mohammad as this video did and the reaction is one we have come to expect from this certain area of the world, of course you have every right as an American to **** all over this relgion but is it worth the death of your fellow countrymen or the threat to national security?
The Arab world is a huge trade partner with the US and provides a great deal of oil etc to the US, you have a large military presence in the area and have been an important part in the shaping of the middle east over the last 60 years. If you want to continue this realtionship ( which is very much in your best interest) I would suggest that insulting their prophet would not be the best way to maintain stability in the region but if people want to continue to insult Islam expect them to react like they have over the past 5 days. Either learn to live with them or leave, pretty simple really.
 
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Higgins86 said:
again I understand it I just dont think agree with you.

Many people on this planet have different customs and beleif systems you can go to many Asian households and you will be expected to take your shoes off, in some parts of the world you stop your car for a Cow not kill it and in other places its rude to shake hands with your left. These are all customs and beliefs that you are expected to follow when your in these countries as a sign of respect and if you dont follow certain customs it can have very bad consequences. In the arab Muslim world it is a insult to potray mohammad as this video did and the reaction is one we have come to expect from this certain area of the world, of course you have every right as an American to **** all over this relgion but is it worth the death of your fellow countrymen or the threat to national security?
The Arab world is a huge trade partner with the US and provides a great deal of oil etc to the US, you have a large military presence in the area and have been an important part in the shaping of the middle east over the last 60 years. If you want to continue this realtionship ( which is very much in your best interest) I would suggest that insulting their prophet would not be the best way to maintain stability in the region but if people to continue to insult Islam expect them to react like they have over the past 5 days. Either learn to live with them or leave, pretty simple really.
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So, the obvious answer, then, is is to not do these things when you go to Arab countries.

What you are asking is to change what we do in OUR country, though, Higgins.

It always boils down to this same double standard, too, even if we did just consider the scenario you posted. "They" are under no compunction to adopt out liberal ways when they come to the west. "WE", on the other hand, are expected to respect their uber-conservative ways when we go there.

I call bullshite on that one.
 
Higgins86 said:
The Arab world is a huge trade partner with the US and provides a great deal of oil etc to the US, you have a large military presence in the area and have been an important part in the shaping of the middle east over the last 60 years. If you want to continue this realtionship ( which is very much in your best interest) I would suggest that insulting their prophet would not be the best way to maintain stability in the region but if people want to continue to insult Islam expect them to react like they have over the past 5 days. Either learn to live with them or leave, pretty simple really.
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I would say it's *they* who need to learn how to live with the rest of the world.
 
lizzie said:
I would say it's *they* who need to learn how to live with the rest of the world.
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This has been the consistent message for decades even from their many of their own people.
 
lizzie said:
I would say it's *they* who need to learn how to live with the rest of the world.
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but thats not going to happen they will never accept an insult to Muhammad,
So again we can continue to allow these cartoons videos etc but know that we are putting our workers, diplomats etc at huge risk
We could just pull out of the arab world and let them rot.
We could prevent videos like these to appease the arabs and help keep our diplomatic ties with the region.
 
Gardener said:
So, the obvious answer, then, is is to not do these things when you go to Arab countries.

What you are asking is to change what we do in OUR country, though, Higgins.

It always boils down to this same double standard, too, even if we did just consider the scenario you posted. "They" are under no compunction to adopt out liberal ways when they come to the west. "WE", on the other hand, are expected to respect their uber-conservative ways when we go there.

I call bullshite on that one.
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Hey I dont really like it either but our Govs seem to want to maintain diplomatc and economic ties in the region so we are going to have to give somewhere else we risk more lives etc.
 
Higgins86 said:
but thats not going to happen they will never accept an insult to Muhammad,
So again we can continue to allow these cartoons videos etc but know that we are putting our workers, diplomats etc at huge risk
We could just pull out of the arab world and let them rot.
We could prevent videos like these to appease the arabs and help keep our diplomatic ties with the region.
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Sorry, but I am not willing to bow to the demands and expectations of unreasonable people, who can't even learn to live in the 21st century, and who cut off heads at the drop of a hat. To bow to this type of pressure is conceeding to them, and verifies (in their minds) the legitimacy of their cause. I will never support that type of appeasement.
 
lizzie said:
Sorry, but I am not willing to bow to the demands and expectations of unreasonable people, who can't even learn to live in the 21st century, and who cut off heads at the drop of a hat. To bow to this type of pressure is conceeding to them, and verifies (in their minds) the legitimacy of their cause. I will never support that type of appeasement.
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Ok but what do you suggest our Govs do when the next video comes out and our embassies start getting attacked again! Do we start war or do we just leave the region?
 
Higgins86 said:
Ok but what do you suggest our Govs do when the next video comes out and our embassies start getting attacked again! Do we start war or do we just leave the region?
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As I have stated previously, on several occasions, and in several threads, I don't think we should be there in the first place. I never supported our going to war, and I certainly don't support spending taxpayer dollars to nation-build. I am a non-interventionist, who believes we should do business with other countries, but stay out of their political matters, and let them do manage their own problems, unless they attack us as a nation.

Before we went in, I expected exactly what has happened, to happen. Their culture is at odds with ours, and they aren't worthy of our trust.
 
Higgins86 said:
Ok but what do you suggest our Govs do when the next video comes out and our embassies start getting attacked again! Do we start war or do we just leave the region?
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We develop plan with the host government where they will do what they are legally bound to do and that is to protect the embassy and keep it safe.
 
lizzie said:
As I have stated previously, on several occasions, and in several threads, I don't think we should be there in the first place. I never supported our going to war, and I certainly don't support spending taxpayer dollars to nation-build. I am a non-interventionist, who believes we should do business with other countries, but stay out of their political matters, and let them do manage their own problems, unless they attack us as a nation.

Before we went in, I expected exactly what has happened, to happen. Their culture is at odds with ours, and they aren't worthy of our trust.
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isolationist...fair enough I can respect that. Outdated way of thinking with how the way the world is now and given that America is the worlds superpower, but I can still respect your wishful thinking.
 
Connery said:
We develop plan with the host government where they will do what they are legally bound to do and that is to protect the embassy and keep it safe.
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and in an ideal world that embassy will always be at that level of security and will always be safe but I think we both know thats not how it works.
 
Higgins86 said:
isolationist...fair enough I can respect that. Outdated way of thinking with how the way the world is now and given that America is the worlds superpower, but I can still respect your wishful thinking.
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Militarily an isolationist. Economically, I support trade if we aren't screwing ourselves in the process. Iow, fair trade, not free trade.
 
Higgins86 said:
again I understand it I just dont think agree with you.

Many people on this planet have different customs and beleif systems you can go to many Asian households and you will be expected to take your shoes off, in some parts of the world you stop your car for a Cow not kill it and in other places its rude to shake hands with your left. These are all customs and beliefs that you are expected to follow when your in these countries as a sign of respect and if you dont follow certain customs it can have very bad consequences. In the arab Muslim world it is a insult to potray mohammad as this video did and the reaction is one we have come to expect from this certain area of the world, of course you have every right as an American to **** all over this relgion but is it worth the death of your fellow countrymen or the threat to national security?
The Arab world is a huge trade partner with the US and provides a great deal of oil etc to the US, you have a large military presence in the area and have been an important part in the shaping of the middle east over the last 60 years. If you want to continue this realtionship ( which is very much in your best interest) I would suggest that insulting their prophet would not be the best way to maintain stability in the region but if people want to continue to insult Islam expect them to react like they have over the past 5 days. Either learn to live with them or leave, pretty simple really.
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Seeing how those terrorist and other Islamofascist do not show respect towards other religions and beliefs then they have no room bitching when people do not show any respect to their religion.
 
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