View Poll Results: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime?

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Thread: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

  1. #301
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie
    Intent to incite people to violence would have to be proven based on the outcome, and would be a subjective judgement on the individual being accused, so that would make the entire process unjust. Regardless of intent by someone who says something hateful, it is the responsibility of those offended to control their impulses to take violent action. They could respond in the same manner as the original offense was offered, but resorting to violence, in response to a non-violent action, regardless of whether or not the intent was to inflame, is an unreasonable response by the offended.
    I disagree with the principles that seem to motivate your overall argument.

    We are dependent creatures. We depend on each other for survival. People should get over that point. For anyone who thinks otherwise, I invite them to divest themselves of all goods which they didn't make themselves, and go straight into the closest available wilderness alone, and, accepting help or trade from no other human being, see how long they last. The simple fact of the matter is that human beings in such situations rarely last more than a few weeks. One or two exemplars out of a hundred thousand might make it a year.

    Allowing trade would hardly improve matters, especially when compared to the survival of a group of people who had banded together for common cause. Again, this is just a plain fact, and whoever doesn't find it to be one of the central facts of civilization has little grasp of nature or history.

    Human beings evolved language in order to communicate information. It's still an effective tool for that use. It provides immense survival value that other animals lack: it allows us to share experiences. So powerful is this facility of language to bring about positive survival outcomes that it has become essential to our very selves.

    So here's the problem: consider the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Most people weren't there. They heard about it on the radio. America went to war on the basis of what they heard over the radio. And that was a reasonable reaction in most people's books. When attacked, it is usually necessary to respond with force or risk a much worse attack.

    But suppose Pearl Harbor had never been bombed. Suppose it was all an elaborate hoax, perpetrated specifically to get the U.S. to go to war. All the information that most people ever received about Pearl Harbor could have been fabricated, and none of those who were recipients of the fabrication would have any clue that this would be so. It would still be a reasonable reaction for them to want to wage war. And that's why it should be a crime to incite violence by lying.

    Insults are another matter. I have not, up to this point, discussed the film that seems to be at the back of the question in the OP. Insults seem to come in at least two kinds. Some of them are proceeded by or accompany violence. Others are not. Where they may be a herald of violence, or a reminder of violence already done, I think they can form a reasonable motive for violence. Of course, where that is not the case, then they do not form a reasonable motive for violence.

    Suppose the case were turned around: imagine a group of Islamic filmmakers producing a film that lauded the actions of Al Qaeda on 9/11, gloating about how stupid Americans were for failing to see the attacks coming or stopping them, and how puny and weak and laughable all the victims were. How long do you think it would take before someone started wondering whether this group of film-makers was associated with Al Qaeda? Even in the case that they not only had no associations with any terrorist organization, they also intended to do absolutely no violence, how reasonable would it be of us to suppose they might be up to no good? How reasonable of us would it be to suppose they merited some kind of response? I don't think one can just so clearly say that it would be unreasonable of us to go after them.

  2. #302
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Simple answer is no. Same goes for burning the flag, burning the bible, and vulgar depictions of Jesus. None of these are criminal offenses.

    However I do believe it's correct to discourage such displays of intolerance and hatred. Was Obama right in criticizing these people? yes. Should they be thrown in jail? probably not.
    One learns more by listening than talking.

  3. #303
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    The fact that I have the same opinion about free speech today as I did last week means I have been manipulated how, again?
    I thought that was clear. The filmmaker has an agenda. He counts on responses such as yours to further it. And you oblige him.
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I thought that was clear. The filmmaker has an agenda. He counts on responses such as yours to further it. And you oblige him.
    He doesn't need responses to further his right to free speech.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    He doesn't need responses to further his right to free speech.
    His agenda is not to further freedom of speech.
    __________________________________________________ _
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    His agenda is not to further freedom of speech.
    It doesn't matter if he has an *agenda* or not. He can say what he wants, regardless of his motive.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  7. #307
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    His agenda is not to further freedom of speech.
    Well, YOUR agenda certainly isn't, anyway.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  8. #308
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It doesn't matter if he has an *agenda* or not. He can say what he wants, regardless of his motive.
    It amazes me how so many leftists take on the anti-liberal position whenever it comes to world affairs.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    It amazes me how so many leftists take on the anti-liberal position whenever it comes to world affairs.
    Yeah, I know. It's kind of sad when you have to rely on people like me, who are old-fashioned and have religious tendencies, to further liberal causes. Champions of the left despise people like me, when we're the ones who support their freedom to speak their minds.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post

    Crap
    That is what I thought when I read the title.


    Of course not what kind of question is this?

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