View Poll Results: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime?

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Thread: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

  1. #251
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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag
    Fair enough, my point is thread is:
    Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime?
    And the answer has to be NO a resounding un equivocal NO!
    If the thread was "should incitement to violence be a crime" the answer is yes, There are limits on free speech. Yelling fire in a crowded theatre is the famous example people like to use. I do not see insulting someone as incitement to violence but saying so and so doesn't deserve to live and should be massacred ASAP, isn't an insult it is more of a threat and or incitement. Yes labguage can be used in Hyperbole so context has to be regarded. Example watchign a football game and yelling at your side to "rip his head off" (Waterboy refernce) is not really gonna be taken as a serious incitemnt to kill someone.
    My original comment in the thread was I also did not, and do not, believe that it should be a crime to disparage Mohammed, Islam, or anything else. I did, however, say there should be a few commonsense exceptions (which would apply evenly to every subject and every person), one of which was incitement to violence. A couple people disagreed that even that should be a crime, and I've been arguing that position.

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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphilin
    One massively problematic issue with your analogy.

    A bullet is not capable of making it's own judgements. A bullet does not control it's own actions. A bullet does not have conciousness and decision making ability. The bullet is under the control and direction of the individual firing it. The BULLET is doing the harm.
    In the case of the movie, that is not the case.

    In your analogy the film maker would be the shooter.

    The bullet would be the movie.

    However, the issue is, the move did not kill anyone. The movie did not force a riot. The movie simply spoke words and showed pictures.

    PEOPLE, viewing the movie, made a concious CHOICE to act in an uncivilized at best, and dispicable at worst, manner.
    The film maker did not force them, did not coerce them, did not make them act in that manner. They viewed something or simply HEARD about something...again, on their own accord...and then on their own accord decided to act in a harmful way.

    Your analogy does not fit the situation one bit, because it hinges on the notion that the action directly taken by the individual....firing the bullet / making the video....is directly responsable for the negative action that occurs next....killing someone. That's a false analogy because the bullet simply acts in a defined manner due to the law of physics and the action of the individual...PEOPLE make their own choices.
    It's not meant to be an analogy, as I had explained just previously in the thread. Rather, it was going to show that we can and should try to establish intent in some types of outcomes in order to determine whether a crime had been committed.

    I think there are other reasons why incitement to violence should be a crime that have to do with how human beings spread knowledge.
    Last edited by ashurbanipal; 09-18-12 at 12:23 PM.

  3. #253
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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Speech that is directed to inciting violence and likely to incite violence can already subject the speaker to criminal penalties, under a case decided over 40 years ago. Whether this video and those like it qualify is questionable, but at the same time it wouldn't be such a huge leap to extend that precedent to cases like this one. The freedom of speech is one of our most cherished protections, but like all other constitutional rights, there are limits which come into play when the safety of innocent third parties is put at risk.
    Yeah but I think the SCOTUS would have a very different interpretation here in not seeing the situation analogous to things like use of the N word. It is almost impossible to get them to infringe upon speech or the press and they certainly wouldn't likely do it to benefit a bunch of foreigners who killed our diplomats overseas.

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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Balancing the rights of individuals doesn't make us more like third-world religious dictatorships. That is indeed complete bull. What would make us more like them is championing the instigation of violence over practicality, reason, and human life.
    You are proposing that it would not be any sort of leap to surrender our principle of free speech in order to appease Islamists because of THEIR savagery and not anything intrinsic to the actual movie. Whatever specious rationalizations you might whip up to defend your attack upon our rights by making us more like them does not detract in the least from that fact that what you are proposing does just that.

    The Islamist agenda above all else, is to make Islam inviolate. You are acting as a useful idiot to their agenda by agreeing.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    My original comment in the thread was I also did not, and do not, believe that it should be a crime to disparage Mohammed, Islam, or anything else. I did, however, say there should be a few commonsense exceptions (which would apply evenly to every subject and every person), one of which was incitement to violence. A couple people disagreed that even that should be a crime, and I've been arguing that position.
    Again Fair enough, It DID sound like you were trying to make the analogy and I wasn't the only one who thought so. Misunderstandings happen, good to set record straight.
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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quag,

    No worries.

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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    My original comment in the thread was I also did not, and do not, believe that it should be a crime to disparage Mohammed, Islam, or anything else. I did, however, say there should be a few commonsense exceptions (which would apply evenly to every subject and every person), one of which was incitement to violence. A couple people disagreed that even that should be a crime, and I've been arguing that position.
    Intent to incite people to violence would have to be proven based on the outcome, and would be a subjective judgement on the individual being accused, so that would make the entire process unjust. Regardless of intent by someone who says something hateful, it is the responsibility of those offended to control their impulses to take violent action. They could respond in the same manner as the original offense was offered, but resorting to violence, in response to a non-violent action, regardless of whether or not the intent was to inflame, is an unreasonable response by the offended.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Yeah but I think the SCOTUS would have a very different interpretation here in not seeing the situation analogous to things like use of the N word. It is almost impossible to get them to infringe upon speech or the press and they certainly wouldn't likely do it to benefit a bunch of foreigners who killed our diplomats overseas.
    But it's not for the benefit of terrorist foreigners, its for the benefit of our soldiers and diplomats, and US tourists traveling overseas.

    The insulting hackery of this thread is the "appeasing muslims" strawman argument. Nobody on the left has any desire to appease muslims, only to safeguard American lives and American interests abroad.
    Last edited by Cameron; 09-18-12 at 12:39 PM.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    You are proposing that it would not be any sort of leap to surrender our principle of free speech in order to appease Islamists because of THEIR savagery and not anything intrinsic to the actual movie.
    Nobody is proposing surrendering free speech. This type of limitation would be no more of a surrender than defamation law or obscenity legislation. You just can't get over the idea of "appeasing muslims" -- or what rational people would refer to as dealing in a practical manner with the reality of islamic extremism. You are placing your sheer hatred for these extremists and the interest of juvenile filmmakers over the lives of Americans. And you are acting as a useful idiot by encouraging behavior which extremists can use as propaganda to recruit new members for generations to come. That, to me, is worrisome.
    Last edited by Cameron; 09-18-12 at 01:06 PM.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    However, when one's free speech is directly responsible for violence towards innocent people all over the world I do wonder if some responsibility for that rests with the "speaker"?
    Is one's free speech ever really directly responsible for violence towards anyone though?

    I haven't seen the film nor do I have any real desire to but I feel like liberals and the media would be treating this story very differently if a Christian went on a shooting rampage because an artist smeared feces on a portrait of Jesus Christ.

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