View Poll Results: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime?

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Thread: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

  1. #241
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    Right. So how does someone determine intent? If the actions of the audience can't be considered, then that only leaves the intent of the speaker as the crux of judgement.

    How does your original statement play out in real life? How do we measure the intent of a speaker in order to prevent violence? Why isn't this film considered violence-inciting?

    Everything about it and surrounding it is blatantly meant to be as offensive as possible. But you said we can't tell the artist's intentions. So why are you insisting that the crux of judgement be on the speaker's intent?
    The crux of the judgment is absolutely on the speaker's intent. The artist obviously is intending to be offensive. That is not the same thing as intending to advocate violence.

    I already told you a real life scenario where this would play out. The example was this: If an individual at a protest or rally, decided to tell the crowd to start throwing rocks at police. In that example, the individual is clearly advocating violence and urging others to commit violence.

    The burden of proof lies heavily on those who wish to restrict freedom of speech.

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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    I don't think the case is quite so bad. We try to infer intent all the time in other situations in order to determine the extent of a particular crime. For example: a man fires a gun through a wall into a room in which he knows another man is standing. The other man is killed. We have at least four possibilities:

    1) The gun went off accidentally, and the man therefore had no intent to cause harm.

    2) The gun was fired deliberately, but the man who pulled the trigger thought the bullet wouldn't go through the drywall, or some other demonstrably absurd belief.

    3) The gun was fired deliberately, but the man who pulled the trigger only intended to scare the other man.

    4) The gun was fired deliberately, and the man who pulled the trigger intended to kill the other man.
    One massively problematic issue with your analogy.

    A bullet is not capable of making it's own judgements. A bullet does not control it's own actions. A bullet does not have conciousness and decision making ability. The bullet is under the control and direction of the individual firing it. The BULLET is doing the harm.

    In the case of the movie, that is not the case.

    In your analogy the film maker would be the shooter.

    The bullet would be the movie.

    However, the issue is, the move did not kill anyone. The movie did not force a riot. The movie simply spoke words and showed pictures.

    PEOPLE, viewing the movie, made a concious CHOICE to act in an uncivilized at best, and dispicable at worst, manner.

    The film maker did not force them, did not coerce them, did not make them act in that manner. They viewed something or simply HEARD about something...again, on their own accord...and then on their own accord decided to act in a harmful way.

    Your analogy does not fit the situation one bit, because it hinges on the notion that the action directly taken by the individual....firing the bullet / making the video....is directly responsable for the negative action that occurs next....killing someone. That's a false analogy because the bullet simply acts in a defined manner due to the law of physics and the action of the individual...PEOPLE make their own choices.

  3. #243
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    The crux of the judgment is absolutely on the speaker's intent. The artist obviously is intending to be offensive. That is not the same thing as intending to advocate violence.

    I already told you a real life scenario where this would play out. The example was this: If an individual at a protest or rally, decided to tell the crowd to start throwing rocks at police. In that example, the individual is clearly advocating violence and urging others to commit violence.

    The burden of proof lies heavily on those who wish to restrict freedom of speech.
    But the topic isn't about a riot. It's about Muhammad and whether or not disparaging speech about faith or other sensitive topic's can be restricted. Telling a crowd of Black Bloc teenagers to throw rocks at cars is not even in the same league as making a anti-Muslim film and people freaking out about it.

  4. #244
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    But the topic isn't about a riot.
    Um, I thought this was about whether this anti-Muslim film qualifies as incitement of a riot?

  5. #245
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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Simple question (I hope it's obvious I mean the Prophet Muhammed, I just couldn't include that in the title due to space limitations)?

    Edit: Crap, I hit "go" before I had a chance to post the poll (and it won't let me delete my OP, so I can try again). Can a poll still be added?

    Edit2: Ok, I figured it out.
    Speech that is directed to inciting violence and likely to incite violence can already subject the speaker to criminal penalties, under a case decided over 40 years ago. Whether this video and those like it qualify is questionable, but at the same time it wouldn't be such a huge leap to extend that precedent to cases like this one. The freedom of speech is one of our most cherished protections, but like all other constitutional rights, there are limits which come into play when the safety of innocent third parties is put at risk.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    No, and our "government" didn't make the film. The stupid film was made by an individual who hated Muslims, because he was mad at an X girlfriend, or some kind of crap. His entire agenda was to increase chaos and malice in the world. Then, we find out the filmmaker was on parole and not supposed to be on the internet, for reasons separate from the latest stuff he pulled.
    "The measure off intelligence is the ability to change." Albert Einstein

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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    If I made a disparaging film about Genghis Khan and Mongols everywhere rioted, would the same people so terrified by Islamist terrorism that they would surrender any of our rights to it be telling me I had no right to make the film?
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    it wouldn't be such a huge leap to extend that precedent to cases like this one. .
    Complete bull. It would be an enormous leap to extend this precedent simply because you want to appease Islamists by making us more like them.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    So we are a society that should take our own God out of public discourse but protect someone else's because we fear his followers (because that sure does seem to be the left-wing position)? LOL

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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Complete bull. It would be an enormous leap to extend this precedent simply because you want to appease Islamists by making us more like them.
    Balancing the rights of individuals doesn't make us more like third-world religious dictatorships. That is indeed complete bull. What would make us more like them is championing the instigation of violence over practicality, reason, and human life.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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