View Poll Results: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime?

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  • Yes

    7 3.20%
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Thread: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

  1. #131
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    The lack of intelligence applied to this matter really amazes me, sometimes.

    I recall a few years ago when there was a bit of an issue over the "PissChrist" idiot Dada photographic "art" where a person actually received a government endowment for this "art" which consisted of nothing more than a crucifix in a jar of Urine. Unlike the issue today, which consisted of a lone individual doing something with no government support and precious little from anybody else, this was actually a product of a national endowment for the arts, the "artist", himself actually earning 15000 dollars for it. Was this offensive to Christians? Of course. Was it intentionally offensive? Beyond any shadow of a doubt. Did Christians go on a rampage? No -- the worst thing that happened was that the "art", itself was vandalized. Was there a hue and cry from any of these extreme hypocrites currently getting their panties in a little knot over this film? You and I both know there wasn't.

    THis isn't about having consistant values , applying those values to an issue and forming a rational reaction. It is about placating violent people because of their intimidation and saying the politically correct thing to say because of this intimidation. How else do you explain these incredible double standards peoppel support viv a vis Islam and any other religion?
    You know what's interesting, G? Nobody seem interested at all in understanding why the guy who made the film did it, or why he holds those "vile" opinions he does. If he's truly a Coptic Christian, that might just be a clue.

    Thousands of Coptic Christians took to the streets in Cairo to protest the burning of a church in Marinab and were headed towards Maspiro, where they were met with armoured personnel carrier, APCs, and hundreds of riot police and special forces. Army vehicles charged at the protesters and reports of at least 6 protesters being crushed under APCs, including one with a crushed skull, has emerged. In addition, witnesses have confirmed that military personnel were seen firing live ammunition into the protesters, while the Health Ministry confirmed that at least 20 protesters have undergone surgery for bullet wounds.[44] In total, an estimated 24 persons were killed most of whom are Copts, while numbers as high as 36 and 50 were reported, including unconfirmed reports of the death of three army soldiers. The number of wounded protesters was estimated to be 322, of whom about 250 were transported to hospitals.[45]
    Inciting more unrest, messages were broadcasted on Egyptian national television urging "honest Egyptians" to take to the streets to "protect the military" from Christian protesters. As a result, hundreds of people, presumably Muslim extremists, were seen wielding clubs and machetes alongside riot police chanting "the people want to bring down the Christians", and later "Islamic, Islamic".[44]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts

    Why is it, a large mob of people can storm an embassy, damage property and kill people over a film (supposedly) and some people will go out of their way to understand their motives, and suggest punishment for those who dare insult them, yet those same people are often completely content to just vilify the maker of the film (whose done nothing more than make a film) without so much as a passing curiosity as to his reasons?

  2. #132
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    You know what's interesting, G? Nobody seem interested at all in understanding why the guy who made the film did it, or why he holds those "vile" opinions he does. If he's truly a Coptic Christian, that might just be a clue.



    Persecution of Copts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Why is it, a large mob of people can storm an embassy, damage property and kill people over a film and some people will go out of their way to understand their motives, and suggest punishment for those who dare insult them, yet those same people are often completely content to just vilify the maker of the film (whose done nothing more than make a film) without so much as a passing curiosity as to his reasons?
    Here's my take, the person who made the movie at least deserves to be heard out. I'm not as interested in his message though as his rights, if I were interested in his movie I would seek it out, but realistically it doesn't compel me to find it. What I find disturbing is that people are willing to trade his rights so easily to appease people of one faith, but other faiths are not only attacked, but at will.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #133
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    American citizens have been murdered. I think it's important to try to prevent that kind of thing.

    I think it's important to look at the root causes and see what's behind them.

    Yes - it's damn silly for anyone to get that worked up over a worse-than-pathetic piece of youtube trash.
    To kill anyone over a religious difference of opinion is asinine, ignorant, and extremely wrong.

    However, we also know that certain things will trigger those kinds of reactions.

    We should not be purposefully trying to ignite the powder keg simply because we want to show others how stupidly animalistic some people can behave.

    Again, I said I'm on the fence. Torn over this. I can see both sides.

    When you do something well within your rights to do, but you also know damn fvcking well innocent people might/will get killed over it, what's your responsibility?
    And at what point should legal charges be pressed?

    It's well worth looking into I think.

    It's one thing to put your own life at risk. It's quite another to put the lives of many others at risk.

    Being held accountable for your actions. Don't we all support that ideology?

    I am not saying the rioters and murderers over there are not accountable.

    But how can you say the film makers don't bear some level of accountability as well?
    The only thing the film makers MIGHT be guilty of, is being twits. I didnt see thee film so I reserve judgement on that particular asspect. They are NOT guilty of anything other than that, I sure as hell dont need to examine anything about the filmakers accountabilities. There should be NO legal ramifications at all.

    The people that should be held to account are the ones rioted and murdered people. There are NO reasons to murder someone not even involved with the film.

    The responsibility for the deaths of the of the embassy staff lie squarely on those who killed them. I dont care if someone actually came up to them in person, and deficated on the quaran and then burned it. Quite frankly we need to get medieval with the sorry bastards.
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  4. #134
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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Nothing, absolutely nothing. Principle always comes before anything else.
    Amen brother. Words and pictures dont kill people, people kill people.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  5. #135
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    yes, inciting violence is a crime.

    however, being offensive is not incitement.
    Incitement is a very strict test. SCOTUS basically said, to paraphrase: Fighting words, criminal syndicalism, and other charged words are those that would compel the average person to violence. Just as yelling "fire" is a Time/Place/Manner issue, language inciting violence has a compelling public interest, if christians don't have a right to violence over attacks upon them, then neither do alternate religions, no matter how deeply held the faith. It's much like racist language, just calling someone the N-word does not pass the incitement test, but "I'll beat you down you ****ing N-word" sure as hell does, and frankly in either case the issuer deserves a beating.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  6. #136
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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Amen brother. Words and pictures dont kill people, people kill people.
    Absolutely, I would encourage people to read the things I had to learn in Comm. Law and Ethics, the court cases of the twentieth century basically. Those cases had the very heart of necessary and proper, the public interest, and where the scope of rigths are and those decisions made quite a bit of sense. The difference between justified violence and unjustified based on language is pretty much based on the normative human response to the issuance.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    I voted no, but I think a few reasonable caveats should apply. For instance, speech that's clearly intended to stir up violence either by muslims or against muslims, when it's also either misleading or downright false, ought to be illegal. Ditto speech that does so to any other group or entity.

    In other words: "Mohammed was a big fat doodiehead," while obviously ignorant and absurd, shouldn't be illegal. But, "Mohammed was a big fat doodiehead, and all you Bible-believing Christians ought to get your guns and kill your Muslim neighbors because they're going to blow the planet up with a huge nuclear bomb vest" should be illegal.
    What part of free speach dont you understand? The free or the speach. The constitution is VERY clear on it.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  8. #138
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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    NOT Comparable, and you neglected to use the word "Fascist"!, though you did, similarly, degrade to Godwin's Law.
    Nor, note the string topic, are YOU prohibited from YOUR daily anti-USA Hate speech.

    Planet Chomsky.
    You are of course correct in the emphasis contained in my posts

    But as you may agree, the major problems on the planet stem from US militarism and imperialism dating back to the end of WW2.

    If you look at the history of the USA, it was once a nation that was one of the most respected and admired nations.

    Have you noticed that my emphasis is on US foreign policy and corporate corruption globally. I have worked in the USA and travelled through most its regions - I have no issues with American people generally - just as I dont have any issues with people from Chile or Italy.

    Perhaps you are taking my comments personally?

    Being Australian, I direct the same criticisms towards my own nation when it has commited identical crimes and engages in similar corrupt pratices on the world stage

    My own feelings on what is happening in the USA is that many citizens are beginning to wake up to what their government is doing and who it is on behalf of.

    You have a long road ahead to regain your freedom and great US constitution which has been trashed without the peoples permission

  9. #139
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    Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

    Once you starting banning speech, then no speech is free, then we would have failed our Founding Fathers and Founding Principles.


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    re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Absolutely, I would encourage people to read the things I had to learn in Comm. Law and Ethics, the court cases of the twentieth century basically. Those cases had the very heart of necessary and proper, the public interest, and where the scope of rigths are and those decisions made quite a bit of sense. The difference between justified violence and unjustified based on language is pretty much based on the normative human response to the issuance.
    Excellent call LMR.....this is what I try to explain to people about the Freedom of Speech call-outs. Also such would entail being able to deal with the whatever the situation might be. For example the Not to Bright individual that may the film. Sure any of those into following that Religions tenets and beliefs have the Right to be offended. If they were into or around the knuckleheads space. Then they might not have the Right to deal with the individual. But they could at least try. Which then that is the other part of the Equation.

    Being ABLE to deal with the individual or individuals in question.

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