View Poll Results: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

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  • Yes

    96 80.00%
  • No

    24 20.00%
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Thread: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

  1. #391
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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    PPACA -- it expands ACCESS to health care without making care affordable. Another example of stating a goal while in reality working directly against it. It bails out the poor by guaranteeing them coverage and it bails out the health insurance companies by protecting their revenue via mandate. The people this hits hardest? The middle class, who can JUST BARELY afford to continue forking over those huge amounts for premiums. The outliers (poor and rich) are done major favors, and the burden of paying for it is, once again, on the middle class.

    Agriculture -- How are the middle class helped by a pro-food stamps, pro-biotech USDA and FDA? Obama appointed Tom Vilsack, founder of the Governor's Biotechnology Partnership, to head the USDA, and we've seen the food stamps program expand. He nominated Michael Taylor, the revolving door executive for Monsanto, to a senior position within the FDA. Food stamps bail out the poor and insure revenue for the largest biotech corporations that have taken over our food production process. The middle class derives the least benefit and greatest relative cost from this pro-welfare (corporate AND social welfare) approach to agriculture.

    Banking -- We have one of the most pro-Goldman/JP Morgan/BoA/Wells Fargo/Citigroup administrations in history, and Obama brokered and supported the TARP which benefits the wealthy bankers while the poor remain excused from the tax burdens that these bailout programs create.

    It goes on and on. Obama is anti-Middle Class. He alleges to be working for them, and that is his greatest lie.
    HC is affordable because the poor and middle class CANT PAY more than 2% t0 9.5% of pay for insurance. its CAPPED. (depending on income)
    So YES it is affordable....

    More people qualify for food stamps, less than 2hr min wage job because your CEO buddys have created more jobs like this.
    Go find an apparment on min wage 20 hrs week..........LMAO

    Yes I would let them all fail too. And charge Goldmans as a RICO entity.

  2. #392
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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    You shouldn't, since "well" is just a particle, and "maybe" does not mean "no." More to the point, we were discussing the pitfalls of the currently most widely-held position and why it cannot be correct--i.e. why it must lead to social injustice. You seem oddly unwilling to continue that discussion. Essentially, you said that if the buyer and seller were both willing, that ought to go a long way toward guaranteeing that the resultant distribution of goods was fair. I responded that this might be so, but we need to hone in on just what "willing" means in this case. This is the point where you seemed to stop wanting to discuss, which again seems very odd.
    "Willing" - to me - means free of external coercion, and the exchange applies to both labor and goods.

    In the meantime, I think we could build on Adam Smith's notion of the liberal reward of labor as a means to begin thinking about what social justice should entail. Briefly, Smith's idea was that the "masters" (i.e. those who own the means of production) should pay their workers as nearly as possible the wage they would make doing the same labor on their own. Thus, if barrels are selling for $100, and a barrel-maker can make five barrels a day, he ought to be paid as close to $500 per day as possible.
    The only way to make that work is for a discontented worker to be free to go make (and try to sell) his own barrels. Then your algorithm will work, and the worker who overvalues his effort will go hungry while the owner who undervalues the worker's efforts will go broke. But you can't sit in your faculty lounge and determine the value of either barrels or workers; only the market can do that.

    Of course, it is correct that the factory owner risks his capital. He should be entitled to an expectation of profit. I think we should do two things about that: first, limit the expectation of profit to something like 5-8%. Second, provide some mechanism whereby losses are made up by society for the first five years a business is operating. Now, of course, we'd have to be careful about how we'd define and implement both. However, I think the popularity of CDs and T-bills provides plenty of evidence that people with capital would still be willing to invest in businesses carried out under such conditions: low risk, low reward will work if it's the best that one can expect.
    T-bills and CDs are, to some extent, guaranteed. A new business is certainly not; I've known several people who became quite wealthy during the tech boom of the nineties, and several who have lost a great deal of money betting on failed ideas like electric cars. As you observe, low risk and low reward will appeal to a cautious person - but I see no reason whatsoever for government to get involved in high risk endeavors, either to penalize the successful gamblers or subsidize the failures. Perhaps you can offer some counter-examples.

    We should also overhaul how money works. It appears a fiat currency is really no better than having a gold standard, but for different reasons. Money is supposed to track actual wealth. That is, there should be about as much money in circulation as the sum total value of things-of-value in an economy, plus a little extra (no more than 10% extra). Banks would obviously be structured very differently, as they could no longer just make up money whenever it pleased them to offer a loan. Derivative instruments would have to be outlawed (with an exception, perhaps, for commodity futures). I would propose a currency based on a multi-commodity standard. So, instead of exchanging for gold or silver, the guarantee would be that the money could be exchanged for an equivalent value (determined by supply and demand) of some commodity at the pleasure of the exchange agent (i.e. the treasurer). So if I have a fifty dollar bill, and I go to the window at the dept of the treasury, I might get $50 worth of gold, silver, diamonds, oil, lumber, wool, cotton, wheat, etc. at the pleasure of the person behind the window. Next door would be a multi-commodity exchange, where I could walk my sow (assuming that's what I got) back over and sell her for ~$50, depending on what changed in the exchange rate in the time it took to do the walking.
    Money is a medium of exchange, nothing more. A fiat currency is more dangerous than a gold standard because it is subject to government manipulation (as in post-WWI Germany, or currently in Argentina).

    Finally, I think it would be necessary to overhaul inheritance laws, though that's still something I'm thinking about.
    After-tax wealth belongs to the person who owns it, not the government or society. What is the rationale for limiting who that person can give it to?
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

  3. #393
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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by 274ina View Post
    Solution is all union leaders are elected by members........Then corrupted leaders are eliminated.
    Would you require a secret ballot? Have you seen the 1953 movie On The Waterfront?
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

  4. #394
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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    My definition of wealth redistribution is redistributing wealth. Governement jobs, which would presumably be replaced by private jobs less efficiently if so necessary, do not count. Roads that benefit everyone do not count. Welfare (particularly unproductive), subsidy and unjustified hand-outs are flat out taking and handing cash.

    The purpose and moral justification are the same. If it benefits society as a whole, then it's investment. If it is taking and giving cash for things that are not objectively infrastructual requirements, it's buying votes.
    It sounds like you are trying to be on both sides of the fence at the same time. I don'lt believe a true conservative would make a statement like yours. The reason I mention it is that you have a conservative lean on your profile.

  5. #395
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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    It sounds like you are trying to be on both sides of the fence at the same time. I don'lt believe a true conservative would make a statement like yours. The reason I mention it is that you have a conservative lean on your profile.
    What?

    I'm a pro-life, green, hawk libertarian and my lean is independent. See signature for philosophical foundations.

  6. #396
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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by 274ina View Post
    HC is affordable because the poor and middle class CANT PAY more than 2% t0 9.5% of pay for insurance. its CAPPED. (depending on income)
    So YES it is affordable....
    Affordable, but not necessarily available at that price. If you cap the price too low, you no longer have willing sellers.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

  7. #397
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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    What?

    I'm a pro-life, green, hawk libertarian and my lean is independent. See signature for philosophical foundations.
    You changed it to [neo] independent.

  8. #398
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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    You changed it to [neo] independent.
    Neo-exodus is my gig. And I've never changed my lean from day 1 here.

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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Neo-exodus is my gig. And I've never changed my lean from day 1 here.
    No, your computer did.

  10. #400
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    Re: Do you think Obama wants to redistribute wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    If the answer were yes, it'd make him no different from the likes of economists such as Milton Friedman, who supported a NEGATIVE income tax in conjunction with his flat tax proposal. Chew on that for a minute.
    His concept of a negative income tax was supposed to replace the current form of welfare. For instance: If the minimum yearly earnings of a person to not qualify for welfare was $12,000, anyone making less than that would receive a check from the IRS for the difference.

    This concept differs from the current state of welfare in that when a welfare recipient gets a job, he can not receive less money for doing so, as in our current system. This gives welfare recipients more motivation to work. This isn't inconsistent with any of Friedman's ideologies.

    There is a stark contrast between wanting to redistribute wealth and supporting a modest social safety net.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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