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Are we better off than the prehistoric man?

But most people are NOT homeless, and most people have NOT been raped by a streetgang. Perhaps you are spending too much time fretting over things that are really rather unlikely?



Men have not magically become angels, no. However, to pretend that nothing has changed for the better is nonsense.

Do some research into the Rennaisance. We have no conception of the daily threat of violence many people lived under in those days: vicious crime, oppressive rulers who could have you tortured on a whim, marauding bandits and mercenaries, the threat of war hanging over them every day, the perils of being conquered (pillage, rape and plunder were once great sports for the military), the joys of annual plagues and so on.

In my studies about Elizabethan London, I learned that it was considered a mortal peril to try to travel in London much after dark. Persons of property who did so, did it with armed servants holding lit-match Arquebuses and lanterns on poles, and kept their swords and bucklers handy. Some scholars believe that many Rennaisance-era cities had more street crime and violence than any modern megapolis.


I think you need to study a bit about primitive tribes from a more neutral and scholarly source. As I've said they were not, for the most part, angelic innocents. I'm part Native American and in the time I spent studying that part of my cultural heritage it became clear that "the Noble Savage" was largely myth. Further studies about Amazon and African tribes confirmed this thesis.

This is interesting.

But still, I must propose that it may be logical, that it is less stressful to the mind when you know that something will (almost) certainly happen if you go ahead with something, than when you know that you may or may not avoid something that may or may not destroy you. As per the OP, your analysis shows, that we may have traded physical uncertainty for mental uncertainty.
 
I was thinking that what the prehistoric hordes shared between themselves, such as food, is in a way the same philosophy as government benefit programs trying to share with tax money.

Things that work for nomadic bands don't work for sedentary tribes.

The "natural communism" and social structures break down around 700 people, as this is the maximum number where everybody knows everybody else well enough for it to work.

Everybody ate, but nobody just sat on their ass.

That didnt start until we started locking up and doling out the food. And it wasnt the doled TO that were doing the sitting. That was the managers.
 
Look up the Yanomamo, also called the Yanomami. Primitive tribes in SAm jungles. Lots of warfare, feuds, murder, rapes, etc.


Primitive does not equal virtuous.

Its good to bear in mind though that human "ugliness" is almost always the result of hoatile environments/population pressure.

Cultures that evolve where the livins easy tend to be pretty easy going.
 
Do you know many people who have ACTUALLY had a street gang put a price on their head? I doubt it... so why carry on about it so much?



This isn't a huge worry where I live, because we tend to shoot people who act like that around here. :mrgreen:

HAHAHAHA This is very good.

Actually, my logic is that although I don't know any gang guys, if I totally mess up, I would be homeless, and then I would have to join a street gang like everyone else for survival, and then eventually either a fellow gang member, or an opponent gang, or the police would get my head. Isn't this true for everybody?
 
This is interesting.

But still, I must propose that it may be logical, that it is less stressful to the mind when you know that something will (almost) certainly happen if you go ahead with something, than when you know that you may or may not avoid something that may or may not destroy you. As per the OP, your analysis shows, that we may have traded physical uncertainty for mental uncertainty.


There are still some areas, in South America and Africa, where primitive tribes continue to pursue a hunter-gatherer lifestyle with little difference from Stone Age times.

Perhaps you could go live with them for a few years. If you survive, you can come back and tell us all about how better it was than air-conditioning and modern medicine.

Until you've had some experience of living this way, I consider your views likely to be romanticized, looking at the concept of primitive living through rose-colored glasses as it were.

Have you ever spent a week in a wildnerness area, living off what you can carry in on your back? This is far easier than living a Stone Age lifestyle... and it can be fun for a while, but eventually it becomes a bit wearisome and you're ready to return to civilization.

On several occasions, I have gone with my son and a large group of like-minded folk into an undeveloped area and built a temporary "village" in the middle of nowhere, with what we could haul in our vehicles or build on-site, then lived in it for up to a week.... then tore everything down and made it disappear like it had never existed. For the duration, we lived a little bit like a "tribe" of sorts... we cooked communal dinners and ate together, worked together, socialized together... had people who were in charge of security, of cooking and logistics, of sanitation, of water supply, etc etc. It was fun for a week or so... but after a while there are things about civilization you miss and you're about ready to go home.

Still waiting for you to fill me in on all this wonderful social stuff about primitivism that I'm missing....
 
HAHAHAHA This is very good.

Actually, my logic is that although I don't know any gang guys, if I totally mess up, I would be homeless, and then I would have to join a street gang like everyone else for survival, and then eventually either a fellow gang member, or an opponent gang, or the police would get my head. Isn't this true for everybody?


How many homeless people do you know? I'm an ex-cop and I've spent a lot of time on the "bad" side of town. Most homeless people don't belong to a gang. Most gang members live in a house and drive a car and finance it through drug dealing and etc. Joining a gang is usually about where you were born and who you grew up around, not about being homeless.
 
Fine. Fill me in on these wonderful social aspects I'm missing.

Okay, for example, in a prehistoric society, everyone in the horde/group had a role. It was never the role of getting fat whilst idle or wondering about one's own usefulness. Every member was accepted unconditionally, and they understood their roles and worked it.

In modern society, every acceptance is conditional, every role is questionable, and every value is only a consequence of erratic market volatilities.

So, the prehistoric guy had mental security, and from that, he could bid for physical security. The modern guy can have neither.
 
But most people are NOT homeless, and most people have NOT been raped by a streetgang. Perhaps you are spending too much time fretting over things that are really rather unlikely?



Men have not magically become angels, no. However, to pretend that nothing has changed for the better is nonsense.

Do some research into the Rennaisance. We have no conception of the daily threat of violence many people lived under in those days: vicious crime, oppressive rulers who could have you tortured on a whim, marauding bandits and mercenaries, the threat of war hanging over them every day, the perils of being conquered (pillage, rape and plunder were once great sports for the military), the joys of annual plagues and so on.

In my studies about Elizabethan London, I learned that it was considered a mortal peril to try to travel in London much after dark. Persons of property who did so, did it with armed servants holding lit-match Arquebuses and lanterns on poles, and kept their swords and bucklers handy. Some scholars believe that many Rennaisance-era cities had more street crime and violence than any modern megapolis.


I think you need to study a bit about primitive tribes from a more neutral and scholarly source. As I've said they were not, for the most part, angelic innocents. I'm part Native American and in the time I spent studying that part of my cultural heritage it became clear that "the Noble Savage" was largely myth. Further studies about Amazon and African tribes confirmed this thesis.

The biggest myth is that primitive peoples lived in "harmony" with nature.

The reality is they moved when they had eaten every animal and plant within walking distance of the camp. So much so that it usually took more than one year for the environment to bounce back.

The extinction of megafauna in North America is suapisciously concurrent with the spread of Homo Sapiens. Makes sense since they evolved without homonids.
 
I'm 41...my wife is 27 (nearly 28).

Theory shot down.

How did you convince her family not to tell her that she is making a mistake whilst shooting 45 calibers at you? :)
(Okay, but really, this is sooo interesting, all the girls I know would not take this to marriage, how does this work?)
 
There are still some areas, in South America and Africa, where primitive tribes continue to pursue a hunter-gatherer lifestyle with little difference from Stone Age times.

Perhaps you could go live with them for a few years. If you survive, you can come back and tell us all about how better it was than air-conditioning and modern medicine.

Until you've had some experience of living this way, I consider your views likely to be romanticized, looking at the concept of primitive living through rose-colored glasses as it were.

Have you ever spent a week in a wildnerness area, living off what you can carry in on your back? This is far easier than living a Stone Age lifestyle... and it can be fun for a while, but eventually it becomes a bit wearisome and you're ready to return to civilization.

On several occasions, I have gone with my son and a large group of like-minded folk into an undeveloped area and built a temporary "village" in the middle of nowhere, with what we could haul in our vehicles or build on-site, then lived in it for up to a week.... then tore everything down and made it disappear like it had never existed. For the duration, we lived a little bit like a "tribe" of sorts... we cooked communal dinners and ate together, worked together, socialized together... had people who were in charge of security, of cooking and logistics, of sanitation, of water supply, etc etc. It was fun for a week or so... but after a while there are things about civilization you miss and you're about ready to go home.

Still waiting for you to fill me in on all this wonderful social stuff about primitivism that I'm missing....

Sounds like a Rainbow Gathering.
 
I keep seeing this pop up, but why the assumption that in prehistoric time they worked short hours? What are we defining work as? Only the time spent hunting/gathering? All else is leisure?

I would imagine most of the evening were spent doing activities such as knapping a spear point, or weaving baskets, cooking food, making clothes. Would this not count as part of their work load? What about going out on a hunt and staying out for days at a time?

Choosing to work a full work week so that one can afford cable TV and go out to the movies, and take an occasional vacation and so on is a bit different than HAVING to work for you and your clans very survival. What we define as "work" for most people is easy-peasy compared to subsistence living.

Now if it were a 40+ hour work week digging a ditch, or doing construction, or other hard labor something, then I might be more apt to say its a viable comparison, but a "laborious" week of sitting in front of a computer and talking on a phone? that's no worse then having to spend every evening whittling spear shafts and knapping stones for your next hunt.. with the added bonus of not having a hunt that you must go on.

Okay, with this kind of differentiated comparison, I can agree with. It looks like a bunch of modern work styles are easy compared to the pre-historic guy's, but not all. But even with the background maintenance works of clothing etc. I think the prehistoric ones worked less hours than we do, timewise.
 
Okay, for example, in a prehistoric society, everyone in the horde/group had a role. It was never the role of getting fat whilst idle or wondering about one's own usefulness. Every member was accepted unconditionally, and they understood their roles and worked it.

In modern society, every acceptance is conditional, every role is questionable, and every value is only a consequence of erratic market volatilities.

So, the prehistoric guy had mental security, and from that, he could bid for physical security. The modern guy can have neither.


So how exactly do you KNOW that in primitive societies everyone had a role and was accepted unconditionally? Given that there is no historical record of Stone Age hunter-gatherers, only archeological evidence and hypothetical maunderings.

What we DO know about primitive tribal cultures is mostly from observing tribes that remained primitive into the 19th and sometimes 20th centuries.

For instance, did you know the Eskimos, due to limits on their food supply, often put old folks in a boat and pushed them out into the ocean to die alone?

Did you know there are tribes that practice "exposure" of unwanted infants? (putting them out in the wilderness alone to perish of thirst or be torn apart by animals)

Did you know that many primitive tribes practice ostracism of members who do not keep all the tribal customs and taboos? Being expelled from the tribe is tantamount to a sentence of death.


So much for unconditional acceptance...
 
Sounds like a Rainbow Gathering.


:lamo Not exactly. Most of the folks I hang with are ex-Military, former LEOs or firemen or First Responders, and suchlike. :)


We share a certain mindset, and we get each other's jokes. ;)
 
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How did you convince her family not to tell her that she is making a mistake whilst shooting 45 calibers at you? :)
(Okay, but really, this is sooo interesting, all the girls I know would not take this to marriage, how does this work?)


Man, you need to get out more.

My first wife was 10 years younger than me. Her second husband was about fifteen years older than ME. :lamo

My best buddy is 48, he's married to a 33 year old.
 
:lamo Not exactly. Most of the folks I hang with are ex-Military, former LEOs or firemen or First Responders, and suchlike. :)

They've been doing it large scale since the seventies.

20,000 plus in a temporary city.

A year later it takes real woodcraft to tell they were even there.

Better rep with Forestry than the Sierra Club.

The guy i used to do LE liason work with, head of Rainbow security, is a gun totin, hard drinkin ex-Marine that you'd swear was a biker.

They once got word that a child molester was hiding out at the gathering. Ho.eboy found him, trussed him up and delivered him to the local cops.
 
How many homeless people do you know? I'm an ex-cop and I've spent a lot of time on the "bad" side of town. Most homeless people don't belong to a gang. Most gang members live in a house and drive a car and finance it through drug dealing and etc. Joining a gang is usually about where you were born and who you grew up around, not about being homeless.

This is even more interesting.

Okay, under this logic then, homeless people are the bottom of the pile, I guess. Since they are not accepted, have no role, and their value is invalidated, they are a good example of what we lost by replacing the prehistoric social structures with civilization. Is their life expectancy longer than an unequipped survival trip in a wilderliness?
 
The biggest myth is that primitive peoples lived in "harmony" with nature.

The reality is they moved when they had eaten every animal and plant within walking distance of the camp. So much so that it usually took more than one year for the environment to bounce back.

The extinction of megafauna in North America is suapisciously concurrent with the spread of Homo Sapiens. Makes sense since they evolved without homonids.

I guess this shows how we started to trade our mental security for our physical security, to lose both.
 
This is even more interesting.

Okay, under this logic then, homeless people are the bottom of the pile, I guess.


Very much so. But 1) there aren't really that many truly homeless and 2) most long-term homeless are homeless due to either drug addiction or untreated psych disorders or both, rather than simply losing a job.


Since they are not accepted, have no role, and their value is invalidated, they are a good example of what we lost by replacing the prehistoric social structures with civilization. Is their life expectancy longer than an unequipped survival trip in a wilderliness?

Some of them survive without a fixed abode for many years, despite in many cases being middle aged or elderly and not in the best of health.

In large part this is due to civilized charities like soup kitchens and homeless shelters (Second Presbyterian in my town runs several), aid from orgs like the Salvation Army and Miracle Hill, as well as things like raiding the dumpsters outside McDonald's in the middle of the night.... which is a lot easier than trapping gophers with a hand-carved figure-4 deadfall trap, lemme tell ya. :)

Those who aren't deranged or druggies tend to get a job and a home after a while. I just helped a guy who was living in a church run homeless shelter get employed with my company, he now has a place to live and a vehicle to drive and is getting back on his feet.

So you see it is not all as cut-and-dried as you have been postulating.
 
I guess this shows how we started to trade our mental security for our physical security, to lose both.



Friend, both mental and physical security are largely a matter of mindset. That is, much of it takes place in the mind; is determined in large part by attitude, will and determination; and is in large part a matter of choice as to how you will view the world and your life.

Those who are determined to find a way to survive, tend to do so. Those who are determined to arrainge their life to suit their own happiness, tend to be happy... especially if they know the secret: focus more on the good than the bad. Those who wish physical security can obtain a reasonable measure of it if they were willing to put forth the effort....

These things are just as true whether you are hunting a job or hunting a mammoth; whether you are living in a grass hut or an apartment or on a farm; whether the greatest threat to your physical security is the loss of prime hunting grounds, or the loss of a job, or getting on the wrong side of the local street gang.

Life is largely what you make of it.
 
If you want the virtues of a rougher life, of which there are many, along with the deeply integrated family and social structure but don't want to live in a cave nor skin an animal to use his fur as underwear, than join the Amish community where you can have a decent mix of the goold ol' work ethic without having to worry about a broken arm or leg being a death sentance because you can no longer hunt.

Or, go to Afghanistan and start your own tribe! Just make sure you hit the tanning bed hard before you go lest you be IED's continually. And, if you get the aforementioned broken arm or leg, you can just walk up to your friendly neighborhood FOB (forward operating base) where American servicemembers will be glad to care for you.....FOR FREE!! Yep, that's right. The American gov't (tax payer) will give you free health care over there too. Make sure you show them your hands though. They tend to not like it when guys approach an ECP (entry control point) with their hands under their man dress.
 
So how exactly do you KNOW that in primitive societies everyone had a role and was accepted unconditionally? Given that there is no historical record of Stone Age hunter-gatherers, only archeological evidence and hypothetical maunderings.

What we DO know about primitive tribal cultures is mostly from observing tribes that remained primitive into the 19th and sometimes 20th centuries.

For instance, did you know the Eskimos, due to limits on their food supply, often put old folks in a boat and pushed them out into the ocean to die alone?

Did you know there are tribes that practice "exposure" of unwanted infants? (putting them out in the wilderness alone to perish of thirst or be torn apart by animals)

Did you know that many primitive tribes practice ostracism of members who do not keep all the tribal customs and taboos? Being expelled from the tribe is tantamount to a sentence of death.


So much for unconditional acceptance...

Okay, I still can't help thinking that all these beat prisons, homelessness, and nursing homes. For example, I would say that those old Eskimo guys had a better death after the initial 2-3 days of hunger pangs that the agony of homeless guys or nursing home hospice inmates. And being chased out into the desert away from the tribe is LOT better than fighting every day in jail. Isn't it?
 
Very much so. But 1) there aren't really that many truly homeless and 2) most long-term homeless are homeless due to either drug addiction or untreated psych disorders or both, rather than simply losing a job.




Some of them survive without a fixed abode for many years, despite in many cases being middle aged or elderly and not in the best of health.

In large part this is due to civilized charities like soup kitchens and homeless shelters (Second Presbyterian in my town runs several), aid from orgs like the Salvation Army and Miracle Hill, as well as things like raiding the dumpsters outside McDonald's in the middle of the night.... which is a lot easier than trapping gophers with a hand-carved figure-4 deadfall trap, lemme tell ya. :)

Those who aren't deranged or druggies tend to get a job and a home after a while. I just helped a guy who was living in a church run homeless shelter get employed with my company, he now has a place to live and a vehicle to drive and is getting back on his feet.

So you see it is not all as cut-and-dried as you have been postulating.

I think that if I was homeless, I would want to die and disappear. I guess this is the same as those prehistoric clansmen who lost their place and were pushed out for something like breaking a taboo. What on Earth makes a homeless guy want to get back on his feet?
 
I guess I could then say, that this will-to-live seems an externally imposed program inside us, but then I would sound stupid. Probably the better analysis of this is that our attachment to our lives is simply fear, the fear of the unknown, I speculate.
Could be fear. maybe we're afraid of missing something.

You don't want to miss out on marriage, sex (yes, even after 40!), grandkids, retirement, catching that big one, a perfect day in the park.

Whatever reason, we're programmed to avoid our own deaths. It's a survival mechanism. Without it, the human race would most likely not have survived this long.
 
Okay, I still can't help thinking that all these beat prisons, homelessness, and nursing homes. For example, I would say that those old Eskimo guys had a better death after the initial 2-3 days of hunger pangs that the agony of homeless guys or nursing home hospice inmates. And being chased out into the desert away from the tribe is LOT better than fighting every day in jail. Isn't it?


How do you know? You've never lived in a nursing home or a prison, nor been an Eskimo or a tribesman... all you have to go on is second and thirdhand info and the theoretical musings of the "we never should have invented agriculture" crowd.

Ever been dehydrated? It's horrible. I'd hate to die of thirst or hunger, it would suck.

My parents lived at home until they died in their 80's. We, their children and grandchildren and kin, took care of them. My Dad did spend a few weeks in a nursing home, once when he was in bad shape, but we didn't like it so we brought him home to pass his final months.

In his last few months my father could no longer walk without help, and he had trouble concentrating and remembering things a lot. I spoke with him on the day he died though, and he had a big smile for me, his son, and he looked happy to see me and glad I was there to spend some time talking with him.

My mother lived at home until she passed away. She spent her last couple days in Hospice, where they gave her meds to make her as comfortable as possible. She died with her family around her and passed peacefully.

Read about someone dying of tetanus before the invention of tetanus vaccine. It is a horrific and ugly thing, and could happen to you regardless of age. All it takes is a tiny little infected wound and a lack of modern medicine.


Prisons are a bad place to be, but then again if you act as a predator towards members of you own society you shouldn't expect to be coddled. Even so, prisons are typically not as bad as fiction and movies make them out to be. Every prison I've visited in the course of my duties appeared to be reasonably well-run and pretty orderly, and while violence occurred it was not an everyday thing.

As for the homeless, well yeah a lot of them need to be in mental institutions or drug rehab... but there are limits to what society is willing to pay for. Just because modern society isn't perfect is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water, and assuming you are halfway sound of body and mind you don't HAVE to be homeless, or remain homeless for very long. There are many charities that will be glad to help you get back on your feet if you're willing to work.
 
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