View Poll Results: Does freedom of speech bias politics towards elites?

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  • Yes, those with the biggest mouths yap the most.

    2 50.00%
  • Yes, those with the most mouths get the most yapping.

    0 0%
  • No, small mouths can yap too even if they're not loud enough.

    2 50.00%
  • No, it's up to small mouths to find each other to yap together.

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Thread: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

  1. #11
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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    The problem is those who can't contribute could have their choices influenced into the future. Freedom of speech forces them to assume the risk of being influenced without consent.
    Where is it written that people shouldn't be influenced without consent? How is that even possible? EVERYTHING influences people without their consent in some way. Furthermore, a LACK of freedom of speech hardly remedies this "problem."
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-04-12 at 02:52 PM.
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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Where is it written that people shouldn't be influenced without consent?
    Intimidation, offer and acceptance, freedom of assembly, rights to privacy... take your pick.

    The rule of law depends on appreciating individuals' judgment, not letting anyone's judgment be superior to anyone else's.

    How is that even possible? EVERYTHING influences people without their consent in some way. Furthermore, a LACK of freedom of speech hardly remedies this "problem."
    It's possible by appreciating how people are not things. We don't live in a state of nature.

    People who aren't as outspoken are not second-class citizens. We aren't obligated to do battle to be treated with respect.

  3. #13
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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    Intimidation, offer and acceptance, freedom of assembly, rights to privacy... take your pick.
    None of those say that you have the right to "not be influenced without consent." In any case, freedom of speech is found in the same document where you found freedom of assembly and where the right to privacy is implied.

    The rule of law depends on appreciating individuals' judgment, not letting anyone's judgment be superior to anyone else's.
    1) That's not true. We live in a republic, which means that the majority's judgment in who should run the country is deemed superior to the minority's judgment. Furthermore, the entire basis of our legal system is that some people (judges) have superior judgment, and they derive that authority by being elected by the people or appointed by others who were elected by the people.

    2) Freedom of speech does NOT mean anyone's judgment is superior. An ignorant person spouting ignorant crap has exactly the same right to freedom of speech as a well-informed, educated person who follows politics very closely. If he chooses not to avail himself of that right, it's his own decision.

    It's possible by appreciating how people are not things. We don't live in a state of nature.

    People who aren't as outspoken are not second-class citizens. We aren't obligated to do battle to be treated with respect.
    If your solution is to deny people freedom of speech because YOU don't want to exercise that right, then it is you who is treating others with a lack of respect. I'm curious as to how exactly you think that denying people freedom of speech would lead to a more equal playing field. Walk me through the logical steps that you led you to that bizarre conclusion.
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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    None of those say that you have the right to "not be influenced without consent." In any case, freedom of speech is found in the same document where you found freedom of assembly and where the right to privacy is implied.
    No right overrides any other.

    The dispersion of energy makes freedom of speech intrinsically offensive compared to assembly and privacy which are defensive.

    Therefore, assembly and privacy deserve priority since they can't be exercised offensively. Speech, however, can intimidate others such that their assembly/privacy are violated.

    1) That's not true. We live in a republic, which means that the majority's judgment in who should run the country is deemed superior to the minority's judgment. Furthermore, the entire basis of our legal system is that some people (judges) have superior judgment, and they derive that authority by being elected by the people or appointed by others who were elected by the people.

    2) Freedom of speech does NOT mean anyone's judgment is superior. An ignorant person spouting ignorant crap has exactly the same right to freedom of speech as a well-informed, educated person who follows politics very closely. If he chooses not to avail himself of that right, it's his own decision.
    This is just mob justice. You're discriminating against those who are different.

    If your solution is to deny people freedom of speech because YOU don't want to exercise that right, then it is you who is treating others with a lack of respect. I'm curious as to how exactly you think that denying people freedom of speech would lead to a more equal playing field. Walk me through the logical steps that you led you to that bizarre conclusion.
    No, that's like saying people are obligated to fight to be treated with respect. Speech is intrinsically offensive.

    People can talk with others who have consented to converse. If people haven't consented, then they're being coerced.

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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    When you think about it, you realize that the only people who talk about politics are those who have time, energy, and attention to spare.

    Those who are busy can't advertise their positions. Furthermore, advertisement is afforded the most by those who have inside connections with advertisers.

    Therefore, does freedom of speech bias politics towards elites?
    You need more than inside connections to buy advertising time. It takes money.

    And yes, I agree with the premise of you OP. Those with the most money get to be heard the most in our society.

  6. #16
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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    Therefore, assembly and privacy deserve priority since they can't be exercised offensively. Speech, however, can intimidate others such that their assembly/privacy are violated.
    Speech itself can do no such thing. Merely speaking does absolutely NOTHING to violate anyone's rights. It's true that the RESULTS of speech may sometimes lead to that (e.g. someone advocating for policies to take away other rights), but that isn't speech itself. The rights to assembly or privacy could be indirectly used to take away rights in exactly the same manner.

    People can talk with others who have consented to converse. If people haven't consented, then they're being coerced.
    The freedom of speech is not an OBLIGATION to speech. If you don't want to consent to conversing about any topic or with any person, then don't. No one is forcing you.

    And I'm still waiting to hear how denying people their freedom of speech would put everyone on an equal playing field. What it would actually do is make certain people the sole arbiters of what kind of speech was and wasn't allowed.
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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Speech itself can do no such thing. Merely speaking does absolutely NOTHING to violate your rights. It's true that the RESULTS of speech may sometimes lead to that (e.g. someone advocating for policies to take away other rights), but that isn't speech itself. The rights to assembly or privacy could be indirectly used to take away rights in exactly the same manner.
    You don't know what it means to be sensitive, do you?

    People can be intimidated from the mere sound and sight of noise. They don't have to even interpret speech to be intimidated.

    The freedom of speech is not an OBLIGATION to speech. If you don't want to consent to conversing about any topic or with any person, then don't. No one is forcing you.
    Yes, they're forced. Those who don't consent to converse are obligated to assume the risk of having their rights taken away.

    Assuming risk is a judgment call which violates freedom of assembly.

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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    You don't know what it means to be sensitive, do you?

    People can be intimidated from the mere sound and sight of noise.
    Well that's just too bad. If you're so sensitive that you can't even bear to hear the sound of another human voice, I recommend you see a psychologist instead of trying to take away the right to free speech from other people. It's your problem, and frankly it's ridiculous to expect the rest of the world to cater to your unusual problem.
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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well that's just too bad. If you're so sensitive that you can't even bear to hear the sound of another human voice, I recommend you see a psychologist instead of trying to take away the right to free speech from other people. It's your problem, and frankly it's ridiculous to expect the rest of the world to cater to your unusual problem.
    ...and who are you to judge someone else as having a psychological problem?

    If someone sneezes on you and gets you sick, why are you to blame? Did you choose to interact with whoever sneezed on you?

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    Re: Does Freedom of Speech Bias Politics Towards Elites?

    The Internet has gone a long way towards leveling the playing field.

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