View Poll Results: Should we pay for Sandra Fluke's birth control?

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    28 35.90%
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Thread: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

  1. #71
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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Abortion is just a cover for your real beliefs.

    And what, precisely, are those beliefs?
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChunkySalsa View Post
    That's a statement vague to the point of worthlessness. Is the government helping to pay for children to be born, go to school, be looked after health and human services, and various other programs the wrong you're speaking about? Or is the attitude of "**** you, I want to maximize the negative consequences of performing actions I disapprove of, even if I have to cut off my nose to spite my face" the wrong you're speaking about?

    Very pennywise to think that saving a few hundred on contraception is worth paying a hundred thousand in schools, prisons and social services.
    This is what I never understood about hardcore libertarians. They choose ideas that in the long run and even short run are bad for their own personal outcomes. The only way that Henrin's policies don't result in a worse outcome for him is if we move to a medical system which lets people die in the streets for inability to pay. Otherwise, all of the costs will eventually come back to us so we may as well reduce them as much as we can. Some of the policies that hardcore libertarians could only be loved by psychopaths. The notion of self interest seems to be sacrificed for ideological purity. They'd rather be poorer, in less health and in overall worse condition then accept a system where everyone is better off.

    Having insurance cover birth control saves me premiums and money. Society is better off with fewer welfare kids, fewer abortions and more productive families. Kids are better off with parents who want and can care for them. Libertarians are in some ways worse then Social Conservatives and Big Government Liberals. They have this notion of what people should be rather than what people are and expect them to act that way. Social Cons and Liberals try to get people to conform via various programs. Libertarians think those people should just confirm because they want them to. That's pretty stupid considering human nature.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 09-04-12 at 07:42 AM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  3. #73
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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    To all liberals(or in this case undisclosed people): Stop using the term "inalienable rights" and attaching it to services of our creation. It's not funny and to people that know what inalienable rights are it makes us face palm. Stop it.

    Having your health maintained is not an inalienable right. Stop saying it is.
    It might not be a right, but it's the law that people must buy health insurance and insurance companies can no longer discriminate against those with pre-existing conditions.

    Inalienable: unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor: "inalienable human rights".

    A woman's reproductive organs are inalienable and self evident and the constitution protects inalienable rights...such as the inalienable right to reproduce or not reproduce. . Women are born with reproductive organs which qualifies them as having a pre-existing condition that private insurance companies can no longer discriminate against.


    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness = birth control


    so any private insurance company that is a part of the government insurance exchange will have to offer birth control coverage or get the crap sued out them by the ACLU. You don't have to buy or use the coverage but it must be offered to those who want it.
    Last edited by Moot; 09-04-12 at 07:57 AM.

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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    And what, precisely, are those beliefs?
    Authoritative Social Conservatism. That and anti-slut.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Russia did not have a universal education system. It was mostly rich families sending their kids to private schools.

    You are so full of **** on England.

    public health : National developments in the 18th and 19th centuries -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
    18th Century American Medicine
    Elizabeth of Russia which did in fact rule during their time and did in fact put in place a system for education. I never said it was universal either, just government run. So go on with you bad self there.

    Though after a little back check I had my time line on England wrong. Queen Victoria was not until 1837. My bad there.


    FYI: charity medical care takes care of a tiny portion of the population, the part that cannot pay under any circumstance.
    So??

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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Elizabeth of Russia which did in fact rule during their time and did in fact put in place a system for education. I never said it was universal either, just government run. So go on with you bad self there.
    Still wrong.

    Public Education in Russia from Peter I to the Present

    Again, rich kids.

    Though after a little back check I had my time line on England wrong. Queen Victoria was not until 1837. My bad there.
    You do realize you haven't actually provided an example of what you claimed. Rich kid education is hardly what you claimed. And frankly no nation in the 18th century provided healthcare in mass. Unless you were Monarchy or military, you didn't get squat in healthcare from the state. Even Nobles had to pay their own.

    So??
    Aka, you want the same system as Cpwill. Can't pay = You Die.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    His constant dancing around insurance suggests to me he has no concept of what it actually is. He refuses to agree to my post. he refuses to explain what it is. Constant, deliberate avoidance suggests to me he doesn't get it at all. And he knows he doesn't understand.
    Perhaps he's suffering from the "empty chair syndrome".

  8. #78
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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Perhaps he's suffering from the "empty chair syndrome".
    I'm actually just needling him into either admitting it or running away. Either of which I can use against him. Kids gloves coming off you know?

    It's a pretty mundane trap by my standards. Not like a twisted quad choice "brick in the face" at all corners trap.

    But most people are so internally inconsistent that it's not hard to pin them in a philosophical quandary. And this election is making the real partisans real tangled.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  9. #79
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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    It might not be a right, but it's the law that people must buy health insurance and insurance companies can no longer discriminate against those with pre-existing conditions.
    No, it can still be a positive right. Just not innate is all. I obviously don't like enacting of positive rights as I find them to a violation of liberty, but its been done so many times now. I will still fight against it obviously and I will never see it as a right, but that is not something you care about though.

    Inalienable: unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor: "inalienable human rights".
    There is still things that quality under inalienable, sorry.

    A woman's reproductive organs are inalienable and self evident and the constitution protects inalienable rights...such as the inalienable right to reproduce or not reproduce.
    You are confusing much here. That only would only mean no one can act on her and she can not use her organs to kill another. :P Remember the right to your body is a negative right like all other innate rights.

    Women are born with reproductive organs which qualifies them as having a pre-existing condition that private insurance companies can no longer discriminate against.
    No, we don't have an innate right to not be discriminated against and ownership by its very definition allows this by giving control access to the property owner.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    Yes, I know what it says. Now please take what I say to heart. I'm only trying to be helpful. You are mistaken. Its ok to be wrong, so don't worry. I was wrong on the Britain health care thing and I'm not mad about it. Its cool.

    Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness = birth control
    Having people provide for your birth control is a violation of their liberty.

    so any private insurance company that is a part of the insurance exchange will have to offer birth control coverage or get the crap sued out them. You don't have to buy or use the coverage but it must be offered to those who want it.
    I'm sorry but that is forcing action on others for your rights to exist. Its simply does not work that way.
    Last edited by Henrin; 09-04-12 at 08:01 AM.

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    Re: Should We Pay for Sandra Fluke's Contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Having people provide for your birth control is a violation of their liberty

    I'm sorry but that is forcing action on others for your rights to exist. Its simply does not work that way..
    So is having people pay for your brain surgery. And your Chemo. And your Viagra. And your broken bone settings.

    Or are we selectively applying standards?

    Internally inconsistent logic eh?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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