View Poll Results: Have you ever received governmrnt assistance?

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  • Yes

    45 61.64%
  • No

    22 30.14%
  • My parents did on my behalf when I was a kid

    6 8.22%
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Thread: Have you every received some form government assistance?

  1. #51
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Do you think the only kind of workforce we need is one chocked full of plumbers?
    not at all - but I think that our workforce needs plumbers, as well as builders, mechanics, electricians, and customer service representatives; as well as a thousand other things. I think that even among college graduates, the odds of finding a job that require a degree are 50/50 and from that I conclude that across the entire base of job-entry, only a distinct minority of jobs require a college degree.

    The problem here is that you're not looking at the big picture.
    on the contrary, that is precisely the error you are making, as we got into a bit above and will get into more below.

    I'm sure anyone would agree that the kind of worker we need right now is an engineer, or someone that, like an engineer, can help the US adapt to a changing economy.
    Then you are assuredly incorrect. We need engineers, to be sure, but we need lots of things other than engineers.

    You really think a plumber is going to develop an alternative energy economy when we run out of Oil? Develop more efficient shipping techniques? Treat patients?
    do you think a doctor is going to clean your septic tank? fix your stuck pipes? build you a house? repair your automobile? Do you suppose that an Exxon Mobile Engineer will be available to stock the shelves at Wal-Mart or perhaps get you your double-mocha-non-fat-frappicino-with-no-whip at Starbucks?

    Your view on the world economy is incredibly narrow and you fail to see that a majority of jobs do require a college education
    that is incorrect by tautology. A majority of jobs do not require college degrees as demonstrated by the simple enough evidence that a majority of current workers do not hold them.

    that these jobs are ones that allow for the creation of others
    that is also incorrect in two ways. Firstly, there are plenty of college-degree-requiring jobs that do not necessarily create others. Professor of English, for example, is a job that often requires a doctorate, but does not in and of itself create other jobs by moving resources to higher levels of production. Secondly, there are plenty of non-college-degree-requiring jobs that do create lots of others. My uncle, for example, has not seen the inside of a classroom since he graduated high school, and runs a construction contracting business where he currently hires about 50 people. It does not require a college degree to run a Starbucks or a Wal-Mart chain store, or open up a new business of your own.

    The US is one of the world's microcosms of development, we are not a nation of plumbers - not one where we aim to halt development by refusing to educate ourselves.
    ooooh, microcosm. you must be in your junior year by now, what a big word . But still in your junior year, because A) you have used it incorrectly and B) you are reduced to arguing a strawman - no one is saying we shouldn't educate ourselves. I am saying that in many cases the decision to attend college is economically detrimental rather than beneficial to the person who makes it, and thus, in aggregate with the others like him, detrimental to society at large.




    Look, if we could educate our entire workforce with college degrees at no cost, then certainly that would be a major economic benefit. Unfortunately, however, everything comes at a cost, and the current scheme to reduce the price-at-purchase of an education has created bubble investment in a real-devaluing asset as assuredly as the scheme to reduce the price-at-purchase for homes did.

  2. #52
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I have enjoyed the benefits of government-funded health care but not in the US. In America, I have received no more than the standard benefits of living in the country - police, firefighters, safe travel on maintained streets roads and highways - you know the usual.
    It's such a shame that people seem to discount social services as government assistance.

  3. #53
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    It's such a shame that people seem to discount social services as government assistance.
    The role of gov't is to provide common infrastructure and services, not to provide individual charity which are best left to private and voluntary giving. It boils down to simple redistribution of income, hardly a Libertarian goal. If one citizen is expected to work to pay food, clothing and shelter for themself (and their dependents) then all should be. The availability of SSDI for the permanently disabled is as far as I wish direct federal gov't individual assistance to go.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #54
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The role of gov't is to provide common infrastructure and services, not to provide individual charity which are best left to private and voluntary giving. It boils down to simple redistribution of income, hardly a Libertarian goal. If one citizen is expected to work to pay food, clothing and shelter for themself (and their dependents) then all should be. The availability of SSDI for the permanently disabled is as far as I wish direct federal gov't individual assistance to go.
    Even the late Milton Friedman wrote that there were three basic groups beyond the ability to help themselves - children, the disabled (I think he was referring to the mentally disabled) and the elderly and destitute. Assistance when necessary was therefore an issue of the commons for all three.

  5. #55
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    not at all - but I think that our workforce needs plumbers, as well as builders, mechanics, electricians, and customer service representatives; as well as a thousand other things. I think that even among college graduates, the odds of finding a job that require a degree are 50/50 and from that I conclude that across the entire base of job-entry, only a distinct minority of jobs require a college degree.



    on the contrary, that is precisely the error you are making, as we got into a bit above and will get into more below.



    Then you are assuredly incorrect. We need engineers, to be sure, but we need lots of things other than engineers.



    do you think a doctor is going to clean your septic tank? fix your stuck pipes? build you a house? repair your automobile? Do you suppose that an Exxon Mobile Engineer will be available to stock the shelves at Wal-Mart or perhaps get you your double-mocha-non-fat-frappicino-with-no-whip at Starbucks?



    that is incorrect by tautology. A majority of jobs do not require college degrees as demonstrated by the simple enough evidence that a majority of current workers do not hold them.



    that is also incorrect in two ways. Firstly, there are plenty of college-degree-requiring jobs that do not necessarily create others. Professor of English, for example, is a job that often requires a doctorate, but does not in and of itself create other jobs by moving resources to higher levels of production. Secondly, there are plenty of non-college-degree-requiring jobs that do create lots of others. My uncle, for example, has not seen the inside of a classroom since he graduated high school, and runs a construction contracting business where he currently hires about 50 people. It does not require a college degree to run a Starbucks or a Wal-Mart chain store, or open up a new business of your own.



    ooooh, microcosm. you must be in your junior year by now, what a big word . But still in your junior year, because A) you have used it incorrectly and B) you are reduced to arguing a strawman - no one is saying we shouldn't educate ourselves. I am saying that in many cases the decision to attend college is economically detrimental rather than beneficial to the person who makes it, and thus, in aggregate with the others like him, detrimental to society at large.




    Look, if we could educate our entire workforce with college degrees at no cost, then certainly that would be a major economic benefit. Unfortunately, however, everything comes at a cost, and the current scheme to reduce the price-at-purchase of an education has created bubble investment in a real-devaluing asset as assuredly as the scheme to reduce the price-at-purchase for homes did.
    That's all somewhat correct. We do need low complexity jobs done, but there's also another industry as well. One that requires doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, programmers, pilots, etc. It seems to me that you fully understand the need for one of these two industries, but not the latter. Education is the great equalizer, one that allows a proletariat(as Marx referred to them) to bridge the gap between rich and poor and break free from the stagnant social structure that exists in the US.

    I'll concede that it may often be difficult to pay for, but as you see on this thread, many people have found a way to get around that. So how about this: What is your solution to the problem? This discussion can't end well unless I become aware of your stance on the issue.

    But really... microcosm?

  6. #56
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    Lol @ "spiralling" university costs. As if universities had been economically available to the majority of people before the 20th century.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  7. #57
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The role of gov't is to provide common infrastructure and services, not to provide individual charity which are best left to private and voluntary giving. It boils down to simple redistribution of income, hardly a Libertarian goal. If one citizen is expected to work to pay food, clothing and shelter for themself (and their dependents) then all should be. The availability of SSDI for the permanently disabled is as far as I wish direct federal gov't individual assistance to go.
    Of course I agree with you, but I'm a libertarian in a different sense than you appear to be. I believe that this "charity" should be asked of the community, as opposed to hoping that by some off chance one of america's bourgeois upper class will go so far as to help another human being.

  8. #58
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Even the late Milton Friedman wrote that there were three basic groups beyond the ability to help themselves - children, the disabled (I think he was referring to the mentally disabled) and the elderly and destitute. Assistance when necessary was therefore an issue of the commons for all three.
    While being disabled and elderly (retired) are permanent conditions that are involuntary being "destitute" or being a child are not permanent. The original (1960's) federal 'welfare' was AFDC which essentially encouraged adding a child (or two) to create a "family" which then entitled the "destitute" parent (not the child) to all sorts of free gov't assistance. We now have an out of wedlock childbirth rate of 70% for blacks, 50% for hispanics and 30% for whites, as ever more realize that getting public assistance is very easy if you have a child (or two) yet that in no way helps the child (as intended). I would prefer bringing back the poor house concept where temporary food, clothing and shelter are provided coupled with some loss of freedom and insistance upon those (adults) getting public assitance to acquire job skills and their children getting a decent education. The current system of "help in place" simply amounts to a reward for failure, pumping millions of tax dollars directly into the hands of morons that take no action to get job skills or to ensure that their (our?) dependent children take advantage of a free public education. The intent of public assistance should be to break the "cycle of poverty" not to simply make it more comfortable to loaf along requiring that the taxpayer (productive?) forever support the non-productive.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #59
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    For about two years in college, when I was only working part time with no benefits, I had CMSP (California Medical Services Program) government health insurance. That's all, though. I got off it as quick as I could.

  10. #60
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    Re: Have you every received some form government assistance?

    Yes, my husband was unemployed in the late 70's and we had 3 children under the age of 13. We qualified for food stamps. I don't know how it is now, but the only thing you could by then was food. I remember having a discussion with one of my friends who made the comment that I was eating better than her. Yes, we had plenty of food, but had to buy necessities like toilet paper, soap, etc. anything that was not food.

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