View Poll Results: Are teachers overpaid and underworked?

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  • Yes, they are overpaid and underworked

    18 21.18%
  • No, they are not overpaid and underworked

    67 78.82%
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Thread: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

  1. #271
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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    In your opinon, do you believe teachers as a whole are overpaid and underworked? If so, why do you believe that? And where would you rate the teaching profession in terms of it being a respectful and appreciated profession?
    Some seem to be a bit overpaid but I don't think any of them are underworked, especially if they work in a public school.

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    This would not be bad except for one problem... The tax base. Property taxes are where most public schools get funding. So if you teach in Harlem vs the Hampton's, your performance means little. This is also why poorer states are being hurt by "No child left behind."
    I don't see this as being an issue, and it's yet another example I was discussing a couple days ago about additional privileges of those with expendable wealth (can't remember if it was with you or someone else, but I think it's with you).

    One of the advantages of living in an area with a higher standard of living and property tax is that the schools are better (and better schools are also a reason why some property values are higher, making it a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario). I have no qualms with parents who can afford a better school district to take advantage of such. Poor schools don't have to necessarily have all the fringe benefits of a "rich" school. So an inner city school may not have a pool. It may not have new computers. It may not have a kickass racquetball court. It may not have a high school equivalent to Cowboys Stadium in Dallas. All of these may assist in education, but only in a minor facet. There is nothing wrong with working hard and elevating yourself through the system, even when you're at the lower end of the system. It builds character. The people who succeed in these conditions are the true warriors of society, and they can also assist in future generations of their family and heritage.

    I see using a school's endowment as a sole determinant on the potential success of the student as a cop-out.

  3. #273
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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I don't see this as being an issue, and it's yet another example I was discussing a couple days ago about additional privileges of those with expendable wealth (can't remember if it was with you or someone else, but I think it's with you).

    One of the advantages of living in an area with a higher standard of living and property tax is that the schools are better (and better schools are also a reason why some property values are higher, making it a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario). I have no qualms with parents who can afford a better school district to take advantage of such. Poor schools don't have to necessarily have all the fringe benefits of a "rich" school. So an inner city school may not have a pool. It may not have new computers. It may not have a kickass racquetball court. It may not have a high school equivalent to Cowboys Stadium in Dallas. All of these may assist in education, but only in a minor facet. There is nothing wrong with working hard and elevating yourself through the system, even when you're at the lower end of the system. It builds character. The people who succeed in these conditions are the true warriors of society, and they can also assist in future generations of their family and heritage.

    I see using a school's endowment as a sole determinant on the potential success of the student as a cop-out.
    You have got to remember I am a social liberal for the most part, all the "I am my brothers keeper" I take literally. I don't disagree because you are necessarily wrong (the fiscal conservative in me, lol) I disagree because we should provide a good education no matter where you live or what economic group you are part of. Just because someone is poor does not mean they are not smart or want a good education. If your school has no money for new computers or up to date history books etc. This should never be an issue for k-12.

    It's to important. To deny a good education because they were born impoverished is no excuse. Under your plan the person who could cure cancer being poor would never get the chance because of circumstance out of his/her control.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 09-05-12 at 10:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #274
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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    So the rest of us, especially the corporations, can freeload off HIS sacrifice? With their jealous and resentful attitude, parasites shouldn't whine about not getting the best and the brightest, who have a reason to be proud and have too much pride to sacrifice themselves for their insulting and ungrateful beneficiaries. Any benefits to the individual graduate are cancelled out by his sacrifice and debt.
    That is just a lot of garbage. No one is freeloading of anyone that has an education. He gets the education to better himself and he then goes out and gets a job to better himself doing the job he went to school for. The individuals that hire him are bringing him in to assist in their business and together they are better off because of this arrangement. Can the arrangement be better? Sure, I guess, but again, no one is freeloading off another here.

    Perhaps some people are ungrateful for the people that work for them, and perhaps that is a problem of sorts, but that is not required here. He can in return not be grateful for the opportunities that were given to him and like the business owner he is not required to be grateful.
    Last edited by Henrin; 09-06-12 at 12:33 AM.

  5. #275
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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    "Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?"

    No, a teacher's compensation and work-load are definitely not the problem_

    They're overprotected and unaccountable which destroys the incentive to perform their job productively_

    This is due to a politically connected union which makes it impossible to weed out the bad teachers_

    There are good teachers but unfortunately when you mix dirty water with clean water you get dirty water_

    All Public Sector Unions should be outlawed and educators compensated by private sector standards_

    Merit based pay is not necessary because without a union, meritless teachers would no longer be tolerated_

    And all educators, whether they teach in The Hamptons or Harlem, should be held to the same standards_

    Of course without parental support there will always be those students who will continue to fail as always_

    Look everyone, I just solved the education problem in the United States, and it was easy__Common Sense_
    You should really try interviewing some public school teachers. You sound like most establishment Repubs spouting one-liners straight from the GOP Think Tank. The reality is, since the implementation of NCLB, teachers are being held more accountable than ever for student performance (or lack thereof). This means that, inevitably, we are also being held "overly accountable" for the parents' lack of participation in their children's education as well as many parents' apparent unwillingness or inability to motivate their own children to study or even to attend school on a regular basis.

    Blackdog raises some good points, as many schools lack the resources to even adequately enforce their own attendance policies........and simply allowing the students to stop attending won't work either as part of the "mystery formula" for measuring a school's effectiveness involves tracking those students who originally enroll all the way through to graduation. Essentially the school is penalized for students who drop out or just stop attending on a regular basis. Is this fair?

    Discipline is also a major issue. Try penalizing a student for using his/her I-phone during class to text or to play games and more often than not, you get angry parents who bitch and whine that they "spent hard-earned money to buy their precious that phone and WANT their kid to have it simply for the sake of convenience."

    In closing, I will say that I, personally know of at least eight teachers in our school district alone, whose contracts were "not renewed" in the past year, directly as a result of their students' standardized test scores. In many parts of this nation, teachers' unions simply do not have the "throttlehold" on education that many would have you believe. I think you may have watched "Waiting on Superman" one to many times and allowed this obviously biased look at public schools to paint you a stereotypical view of what may or may not be occuring in the majority of our public education system. There IS indeed a bigger picture. You should broaden your horizon a bit.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  6. #276
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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    You have got to remember I am a social liberal for the most part
    As am I. Libertarianism is essentially left-leaning in social issues.

    I don't disagree because you are necessarily wrong (the fiscal conservative in me, lol) I disagree because we should provide a good education no matter where you live or what economic group you are part of.
    Whoa whoa whoa. I never said that economically depressed schools and districts should get bad education. I'm just saying that rich districts should get more luxuries which may have ancillary benefits in education. I think you're seeing this as zero-sum, where rich districts get all the education and the ghetto/inner city/slum districts get the leftovers. That's not what I'm saying at all. I favor all schools, regardless of median incomes within any particular district, to get as quality of an education as feasibly allowable.

    If your school has no money for new computers or up to date history books etc. This should never be an issue for k-12.
    And I disagree. Are students really that crippled if they have to use computers with Windows XP instead of Windows 7/8? If they have to use Word/Excel 2003 over 2007 and newer? I don't think they are. Is the life story of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Napoleon Bonaparte, or Winston Churchill any different now than it was in 2008? Negative. Sorry if I don't believe in giving the poor all the "bells and whistles".

    It's to important. To deny a good education because they were born impoverished is no excuse. Under your plan the person who could cure cancer being poor would never get the chance because of circumstance out of his/her control.
    They'd get the chance. It just wouldn't be as easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffyninja
    Blackdog raises some good points, as many schools lack the resources to even adequately enforce their own attendance policies........and simply allowing the students to stop attending won't work either as part of the "mystery formula" for measuring a school's effectiveness involves tracking those students who originally enroll all the way through to graduation. Essentially the school is penalized for students who drop out or just stop attending on a regular basis. Is this fair?
    It absolutely is. Nobody can bitch about quality of education in the poorer schools when the kids themselves refuse to go.

    Discipline is also a major issue. Try penalizing a student for using his/her I-phone during class to text or to play games and more often than not, you get angry parents who bitch and whine that they "spent hard-earned money to buy their precious that phone and WANT their kid to have it simply for the sake of convenience."
    Then you don't do it. There is a massive difference between having the ability to educate and recipients having the desire to be educated. If students want to skip school, text in class, and generally refuse to learn, they should have that right - but I'd be adamantly against a complete waste of money being used for that purpose. Just let the school suffer, along with the students in it, who don't seem to give a damn anyway (nor do the parents). That's the rub about education - it has to be achieved under one's own volition. You can lead a horse to water, after all...

  7. #277
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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    As am I. Libertarianism is essentially left-leaning in social issues.



    Whoa whoa whoa. I never said that economically depressed schools and districts should get bad education. I'm just saying that rich districts should get more luxuries which may have ancillary benefits in education. I think you're seeing this as zero-sum, where rich districts get all the education and the ghetto/inner city/slum districts get the leftovers. That's not what I'm saying at all. I favor all schools, regardless of median incomes within any particular district, to get as quality of an education as feasibly allowable.



    And I disagree. Are students really that crippled if they have to use computers with Windows XP instead of Windows 7/8? If they have to use Word/Excel 2003 over 2007 and newer? I don't think they are. Is the life story of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Napoleon Bonaparte, or Winston Churchill any different now than it was in 2008? Negative. Sorry if I don't believe in giving the poor all the "bells and whistles".



    They'd get the chance. It just wouldn't be as easy.



    It absolutely is. Nobody can bitch about quality of education in the poorer schools when the kids themselves refuse to go.



    Then you don't do it. There is a massive difference between having the ability to educate and recipients having the desire to be educated. If students want to skip school, text in class, and generally refuse to learn, they should have that right - but I'd be adamantly against a complete waste of money being used for that purpose. Just let the school suffer, along with the students in it, who don't seem to give a damn anyway (nor do the parents). That's the rub about education - it has to be achieved under one's own volition. You can lead a horse to water, after all...
    Gipper I luv you man but your argument is just so unrealistic in so many ways. Libertarians just don't have a real connection to the reality's of certain things, never have and never will. That's why they will never really get anyplace politically. I think this is a good thing.

    I will just agree to disagree and leave it at that..
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    Gipper I luv you man but your argument is just so unrealistic in so many ways. Libertarians just don't have a real connection to the reality's of certain things, never have and never will. That's why they will never really get anyplace politically. I think this is a good thing.

    I will just agree to disagree and leave it at that..
    I'm not sure about that. There are many libertarian-like policies and social experiments that never have and, probably, will never see the light of day. They're too much of a system shock to what's in place.

    However, the voucher system is not one of them. There are microcosms of this theory and experiment already put in place out in the real world. In time, we'll see...instead of the old "agree to disagree" walkaway when two people can't meet common ground because one's argument will never be put into effect.

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I'm not sure about that. There are many libertarian-like policies and social experiments that never have and, probably, will never see the light of day. They're too much of a system shock to what's in place.

    However, the voucher system is not one of them. There are microcosms of this theory and experiment already put in place out in the real world. In time, we'll see...instead of the old "agree to disagree" walkaway when two people can't meet common ground because one's argument will never be put into effect.
    My argument is not about putting anything into affect and yours has yet to be implemented and may never be. So what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    In your opinon, do you believe teachers as a whole are overpaid and underworked? If so, why do you believe that? And where would you rate the teaching profession in terms of it being a respectful and appreciated profession?
    I don't know. How much do they get paid and what is their work week like?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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