View Poll Results: Are teachers overpaid and underworked?

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  • Yes, they are overpaid and underworked

    18 21.18%
  • No, they are not overpaid and underworked

    67 78.82%
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Thread: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

  1. #221
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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog
    Ahh I see. Because segregation has worked so well in the past.
    Some kinds work well, such as ones based on actions and choices done under one's own volition. I know you, being black, automatically assume the word "segregate" means by race (which is a bad form), but it can also mean separation by other factors that can be voluntary (which are good forms).

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Um...whether you intended to or not, you just admitted that your "In a true free market class mobility is high..." comment was false. Unless what you meant was that high class mobility was easy for the high class?
    What on earth are you talking about. I pointed out that your post was full of ****. Tha doesn't change the fact my argument is sound.

    The free market permits high class mobility, whereas socialism leads to class stagnation as wealth bottlenecks among the elite.

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    In SOME places they are overpaid....usually the highly unionized states.
    But for the most part, not overpaid.
    Oracle of Utah
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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    What on earth are you talking about. I pointed out that your post was full of ****. Tha doesn't change the fact my argument is sound.

    The free market permits high class mobility, whereas socialism leads to class stagnation as wealth bottlenecks among the elite.
    I believe you are changing your statement now. Originally you said "in a free market class mobility is high"......now you appear to be saying that "a free market permits high class mobility." Two very distinct things; because the reality is that the competitive nature of the free market often creates obstacles that simply cannot be overcome by many. Is the possibility for class mobility there?.........Sure. Always. Is that mobility experienced at a "high" rate by many citizens?...........sadly, no.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yep, agreed.



    The voucher system would not work. Everyone must be equal under the law. This includes good and bad parents or students.
    Even obama is seeing the light on vouchers.

    "The Obama administration reversed course Monday and agreed to fully implement a controversial school voucher program that provides federal tuition assistance to a limited number of D.C. youths despite historically mixed opinion of the program among city leaders and the White House’s own efforts to eliminate it."

    "The agreement builds on a “dramatic explosion” of school-choice initiatives across the country, totaling 25 bills in 13 states over the past two legislative cycles, said Robert Enlow, president and CEO of the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice."

    "The reality is the [D.C] program is helping children do better,” he said. “It’s really good they have reversed course on this and don’t want to get in a big fight with Congress.”

    Read more: White House relents on D.C. school voucher bill - Washington Times White House relents on D.C. school voucher bill - Washington Times

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyer
    Even obama is seeing the light on vouchers.

    "The Obama administration reversed course Monday and agreed to fully implement a controversial school voucher program that provides federal tuition assistance to a limited number of D.C. youths despite historically mixed opinion of the program among city leaders and the White House’s own efforts to eliminate it."

    "The agreement builds on a “dramatic explosion” of school-choice initiatives across the country, totaling 25 bills in 13 states over the past two legislative cycles, said Robert Enlow, president and CEO of the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice."

    "The reality is the [D.C] program is helping children do better,” he said. “It’s really good they have reversed course on this and don’t want to get in a big fight with Congress.”

    Read more: White House relents on D.C. school voucher bill - Washington Times White House relents on D.C. school voucher bill - Washington Times
    Took him long enough. Frankly I thought he had the power to pull the trigger on that when the woman who bought his presidency - Oprah Winfrey - started making education-based headlines about the overwhelming success of her school system in African nations.

    There have been miniature programs which have roots in a voucher system, most of which have been a tremendous success. The main problem is that the concept is not politically correct, and it's going to hurt the feelings of the people who represent the wrong side of the bell curve.

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    I believe you are changing your statement now. Originally you said "in a free market class mobility is high"......now you appear to be saying that "a free market permits high class mobility." Two very distinct things; because the reality is that the competitive nature of the free market often creates obstacles that simply cannot be overcome by many. Is the possibility for class mobility there?.........Sure. Always. Is that mobility experienced at a "high" rate by many citizens?...........sadly, no.
    These are different but not mutually exclusive things. In order to achieve high class mobility (a relative term) we must first have a system that permits it at all. Our current system does not permit it at all. A free market does permit it. It is not easy, since it will require work. There is nothing that has changed in my argument, you just aren't paying attention.

    If you can think of some system where everybody gets all their needs met without competition, I will be your first convert. But that's the problem with socialism, it can never deliver on its promises in reality, so it creates that perverse system we have now.

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    These are different but not mutually exclusive things. In order to achieve high class mobility (a relative term) we must first have a system that permits it at all. Our current system does not permit it at all. A free market does permit it. It is not easy, since it will require work. There is nothing that has changed in my argument, you just aren't paying attention.

    If you can think of some system where everybody gets all their needs met without competition, I will be your first convert. But that's the problem with socialism, it can never deliver on its promises in reality, so it creates that perverse system we have now.
    I don't subscribe to socialism. Just pointing out that a true free-market system is far from flawless. Competition in the markets definitely has its upsides but just as in every competition, there are "winners" and then there are always those who, for whatever reasons, cannot compete and end up at the "back of the pack."

    I strongly support a free-market system, but never be disillusioned and falsely believe that ALL will benefit from such a system......it just isn't drawn up that way. Be prepared to deal with the vast majority who will "lag behind" in the realm of competition.......that is all I'm saying here.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    My argument is that people being given a wage below a certain amount is immoral, if that amount keeps them from having basic first world living standards. I never once said that anyone should or should not do specific actions to get to that.
    On the contrary, to suggest that paying someone below $35K a year is immoral is to indeed suggest that one must pay them $35K or above in order to be moral. Now you are trying to have it both ways. I have found myself employing 10 people at below your "moral" wage. Is it more moral for me to fire some (or, which is analogous, never hire them in the first place) in order to pay the remainders more?

    Your position seems based upon an unwillingness to appreciate the consequences.

    My personal approach would be to use social support systems like we have now.
    then your personal approach has nothing whatsoever to do with how much employers pay for labor and you should not suggest that they are somehow immoral when they pay for labor what it is worth.

    The point being that one does not have to resort to lessez faire economics to show prosperity. I see you conviently ignore australia.
    Nobody has Lasseiz Faire economics - the temptation for politicians to promise electorates something for nothing is too powerful. You could just as easily point to the United States, where we keep our most vulnerable populations out of the workforce by pricing them out of the market. As for Australia, in fact, you may be surprised to know that the main reason they are doing so much better than us is because they are, in fact, closer to lasseiz faire than we are



    Far better than abandoning people, creating an unhappy underclass, and having revolution which is what historically happens whether or not one trots the old line of "you are saying people can't take care of themselves, which you always do".
    never did I suggest that we abandon anyone; nor have I trotted out that strawman. There are indeed some who cannot take care of themselves. But a negative income tax supports those people without providing the incentives to make self-destructive decisions, without the marriage penalties, without the welfare cliffs.

    Average work better on very large scales, when you are dealing with a population of 30, then you have to get more specific since the swings can get wilder and wilder. Its how math works.
    then I'm fine with producing the aggregate off of students' historical performance, which is information that the schools already have, and which they have already put to good effect to catch cheating teachers.

    What they need to do is then do a recursion study to find out which specific actions Mr Smith did caused this growth, see how applicable these actions are to other circumstances, and apply where possible.
    After an after-action-report, certainly. But in the meantime Mr Smith deserves a pay raise.

    Basically, a good six sigma black belt type engineering studies is what you need.
    Newt, is that you? :2razz

    Once the formula is found, than education will be better.
    Perhaps, but I think that your top-down approach will find outself rapidly outpaced by individual effort. The other teachers have only to ask Mr Smith what he did, and then do it themselves, or perhaps innovate on top of his approach to produce even better effects.

    There is no need to worry about people when you can build better systems using science.
    yeah..... how has that worked out everywhere it's been tried? Really really well, or millions starving to death in the Great Leap Forward?

    Wait, I thought it was your side generally in here arguing that students and teachers weren't cogs in a machine?

    True, but its the privacy laws that would need to be changed. I am fine with that for this purpose, but I think it would be an uphill battle with most parents.
    Given that the schools already track and have this data, and that this would not entail releasing any data to the public, I really don't see how you are coming up with that.

    I tend to support incentive structures as well. Good studies have been done with results of doing things like giving people a reward to hold and then only taking it away if they fail a task.
    There was one explicitly done tying teacher loss-aversion to student performance; I think I posted it in the education forum a while back.

    However, here we are talking about financial disencentive to increase ones' productivity, or form a stable family structure.

    The ghetto didn't start getting bad until hard drugs were introduced.
    we didn't start to see the destruction in family structure and the generational poverty traps until we started paying people to move into them.

  10. #230
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    Re: Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Even obama is seeing the light on vouchers.

    "The Obama administration reversed course Monday and agreed to fully implement a controversial school voucher program that provides federal tuition assistance to a limited number of D.C. youths despite historically mixed opinion of the program among city leaders and the White House’s own efforts to eliminate it."

    "The agreement builds on a “dramatic explosion” of school-choice initiatives across the country, totaling 25 bills in 13 states over the past two legislative cycles, said Robert Enlow, president and CEO of the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice."

    "The reality is the [D.C] program is helping children do better,” he said. “It’s really good they have reversed course on this and don’t want to get in a big fight with Congress.”

    Read more: White House relents on D.C. school voucher bill - Washington Times White House relents on D.C. school voucher bill - Washington Times
    Like I care what Obama thinks? He is nothing but a corporate bought shill that cares nothing about what the people want.
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    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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