View Poll Results: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

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94. You may not vote on this poll
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    60 63.83%
  • againt

    34 36.17%
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Thread: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

  1. #71
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgasm View Post
    Older people may remember when Social Security cards said "Not for identification purposes".
    They still do, actually. So what does that have to do with the question I actually asked?
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  2. #72
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    it would simply be one form of ID accepted at the polls. if one didn't want to use it, they could use any other form of ID.
    So long as they have one form of legitimate ID, that's fine. They ought to have one.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #73
    Educator OnWisconsin's Avatar
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    I've said this before but here it goes again:

    IF there was an actual problem with people committing voter fraud I would be for this, however the fraud isn't with the voters its with those either counting the votes or those they are voting for.

    IF just ONE eligible voter is turned away and unable to vote because of this, it is far worse than one voter voting twice.

    Why in the hell would someone risk the penalty of committing fraud all for the purpose of voting a second time, or third..? On a large scale these votes do not matter whatsoever.





    Show me ONE election where they have determined that voter fraud was the cause of the elected official.

    I can show you ONE election where fraud on the other end was the cause of the elected official: George W. Bush.
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
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    Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.
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    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
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  4. #74
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    To me its just common sense, how about you?
    I think its common sense too.Ballots are anonymous. How do you prove the person who showed up is really who they say they are?After all majority of registered voters do not vote in every single election,so it would be easy for a group to compile a list of voters who don't show up for various elections and have people pose as those voters at those elections those voters do not regularly show up to. Voter registration fraud might be a little more easier to catch. Since ballots are anonymous how do you separate the legitimate voters ballots from the posers ballots,How do you separate the micky mouses and dead people's ballots from actual voters ballots? You can't because ballots are anonymous. Since ballots are anonymous this also means that any voter fraud is almost impossible to prove when it does happen. The polling places do not send thank you for voting post cards and the polling places do not call up every single voter on their voting rolls to see if they actually voted. So requiring a voter to show a state issued ID or state issued driver's license makes perfect sense. Driver's licenses and IDs are cheap,so the idea that the poor or minorities will disenfranchised is idiotic.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  5. #75
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    Bad poll. It really, really needs an "other" option.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

  6. #76
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Reasoning:
    Minorities are less likely to have or need a photo ID. Minorities are more likely to be liberal. Therefore, the main people who will be affected by voter ID requirements are liberals.
    Bolded is a red herring. I do grant your first argument to a point. Either it's a problem for minorities (liberal, conservative, libertarian, whatever) or it's a problem for liberals (regardless of race).

    Evidence:
    Voter ID laws: Why do minorities lack ID to show at the polls? - Slate Magazine

    Minorities are less likely to have driverís licenses because they are more likely to be poor and to live in urban areas. If you canít afford a car, or if you donít need one because you take the bus or subway, you are less likely to have a driverís license.
    IF you don't need a car because you get to the voting place then what is the problem with using some other form of photo ID? Again if they can get it for free and can get to the polling place via mass transit then they can get to the ID place via mass transit to get the free ID. If they don't have a car to get to the ID place, then how are they supposed to get to the polling place?

    minorities may be more likely to have lost their driverís licenses:
    That's a responsibility thing and can strike anyone. No minority targeting there.

    ...the Brennan Center additionally reports that many voting centers are far away from minority voters and are rarely open.
    What does this have to do with whether or not a photo ID is needed. This is an even worse red herring!

    Academic studies suggest that voter ID laws do probably reduce turnout, both among Democrats and Republicans, but not by more than about 2 percent.
    2 percent,if I recall correctly, is within the statistical margin of error So basically you're own evidence has just stated that any disenfranchisement is equally targeting both sides.

    Looks like the second link is just another article on the same study and the PDF is the study itself. I shall have to study the study(no puns intended) itself when I get more of a chance.

    Now I will say that I do agree that the requirement for exactly what type of photo ID is used should be widened a bit (like my wife's state worker's ID should be allowed) AND there should be a method that allowed people without reasonable access to obtain such ID's, like maybe a mobile gov't services unit. Hey I'm even all for having social services issuing official government photo ID's when people come in to register for food stamps or welfare. But as jamesrage pointed out, if your system is set such that you can't even measure fraud, then how can you catch it? And for that matter, if you don't have an ID how do you prevent a non-citizen from voting to counter a citizen's vote.

  7. #77
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I think its common sense too.Ballots are anonymous. How do you prove the person who showed up is really who they say they are?After all majority of registered voters do not vote in every single election,so it would be easy for a group to compile a list of voters who don't show up for various elections and have people pose as those voters at those elections those voters do not regularly show up to. Voter registration fraud might be a little more easier to catch. Since ballots are anonymous how do you separate the legitimate voters ballots from the posers ballots,How do you separate the micky mouses and dead people's ballots from actual voters ballots? You can't because ballots are anonymous. Since ballots are anonymous this also means that any voter fraud is almost impossible to prove when it does happen. The polling places do not send thank you for voting post cards and the polling places do not call up every single voter on their voting rolls to see if they actually voted. So requiring a voter to show a state issued ID or state issued driver's license makes perfect sense. Driver's licenses and IDs are cheap,so the idea that the poor or minorities will disenfranchised is idiotic.
    And risk being charged with fraud if they get caught? Lets say you manage to find a group of 1000 people who are willing to risk jail time and fines to pose as someone else (highly unlikely).. on a national stage, 1000 people are not going to sway an election one way or the other.

    This is all a mute point because there have been numerous studies by independent firms that conclude that voter fraud is virtually non-existent..

    However, there have also been studies that show that by imposing a voter-ID law, there will be millions of people who will be turned away at the polls. Virtually all of whom are eligible voters. So where is the real injustice here? I say it is in imposing voter-id laws on people. The right is very good at bringing up topics that are meant to scare people, turning those topics into something that sounds legitimate and then making people pass legislation based on those fears.

    http://truth-out.org/news/item/10981...on-voter-fraud

    http://votingrights.news21.com/article/election-fraud/

    http://www.minnpost.com/politics-pol...y-non-existent

    And then one for those who will be hurt by voter-Id legislation:

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78661.html

    So are we really willing to disenfranchise millions of voters based on 10 prosecuted cases of voter fraud over the last 12 years?
    Last edited by OnWisconsin; 08-31-12 at 05:57 PM.
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
    - Abraham Lincoln

    Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

    God, how patient are Thy poor! These corporations and masters of manipulation in finance heaping up great fortunes by a system of legalized extortion,
    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

  8. #78
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    And risk being charged with fraud if they get caught?
    What is the risk of being caught? Polling places in states without voter laws do not ask for ID, so you don't have to prove who you are.

    Lets say you manage to find a group of 1000 people who are willing to risk jail time and fines to pose as someone else (highly unlikely).. on a national stage, 1000 people are not going to sway an election one way or the other.
    The local stage is just as important or even more important than the national stage. I do not know about your state but in my state we vote for district, city and state level representation, we vote for judges, we vote for sheriffs, school board officials, bond issues, voter initiatives and ballot questions that effect state laws, presidential party primaries, bond issues, tax increases and anything else on a ballot.All of which can effect the national level.

    A thousand voters can make the difference between a senator or congressmen getting elected.Which can mean the difference between a bill making it to the president's desk.

    This is all a mute point because there have been numerous studies by independent firms that conclude that voter fraud is virtually non-existent..
    And I am sure that coincidentally those people doing those studies do not support voter ID laws,so their study doesn't mean dick.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #79
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    What is the risk of being caught? Polling places in states without voter laws do not ask for ID, so you don't have to prove who you are.



    The local stage is just as important or even more important than the national stage. I do not know about your state but in my state we vote for district, city and state level representation, we vote for judges, we vote for sheriffs, school board officials, bond issues, voter initiatives and ballot questions that effect state laws, presidential party primaries, bond issues, tax increases and anything else on a ballot.All of which can effect the national level.

    A thousand voters can make the difference between a senator or congressmen getting elected.Which can mean the difference between a bill making it to the president's desk.



    And I am sure that coincidentally those people doing those studies do not support voter ID laws,so their study doesn't mean dick.
    Did you read any of those studies? The majority of charges in voter fraud are of those who were felons and were not aware of the eligibility. Very few who have been found guilty are actually people posing as other people.

    Its very easy for you to sit here and try to discredit those studies, find me one that shows significant voter fraud numbers and I'll accept your argument. Otherwise you're simply posting opinion/speculation.

    1000 people was simply put up as a number. The whole point of that statement is that you are not going to find 1000 people to pose as someone else because there is not 1000 people who are willing to risk being caught. The reward is not even remotely worth the risk.

    Minimum penalty for voter fraud is $500 fine and one year in prison along with disenfranchisement. Name one poor liberal who is willing to risk that for the sake of adding one extra vote to the ballot.
    Last edited by OnWisconsin; 08-31-12 at 06:15 PM.
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
    - Abraham Lincoln

    Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

    God, how patient are Thy poor! These corporations and masters of manipulation in finance heaping up great fortunes by a system of legalized extortion,
    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

  10. #80
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    Re: Are you for or against vote ID to vote?

    Putting any restriction on the ability to vote is something that should never be done lightly. We currently do not have a widespread problem with fraud that could be stopped by voter ID's. That said, its not exactly beneficial to leave an obvious potential flaw in the integrity of our voting system either. I would say a voter ID requirement is reasonable on the condition that the ID actually be secure and that it has no barriers to obtaining one. The current ID system in the U.S. does not meet the standard required. Currently getting an Id means paying for the privilege of dueling the bureaucracy until they issue you an ID with zero modern security features that can trivially be faked. There needs to be a better ID system before requiring ID to vote can be justified.

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