View Poll Results: Should people who believe in fate be banned from government?

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  • Yes, fatalism is anti-social.

    0 0%
  • Yes, fatalism contradicts the exercise of influence.

    1 9.09%
  • No, fatalists are equal members of society.

    10 90.91%
  • No, fatalists deserve the right to influence others.

    0 0%
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Thread: Should People Who Believe in Fate be Banned from Government?

  1. #41
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    cpwill's Avatar
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    Re: Should People Who Believe in Fate be Banned from Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    What opinion are you talking about?

    I haven't said I like or want anything in this thread.

    Anyway, yes, I agree that nobody's opinion should trump anyone else's.

    That's why fatalism is antisocial. It suggests that some opinions are intrinsically more valuable.
    ALL LAW makes this assumption. The law about speed limits suggests that some persons' opinions (an expert hired by the state) or a majority of peoples' opinions (if speed limits are set locally) about how fast you can safely drive are more valuable than the opinion of the 17 year old who thinks he is indestructible. Every law has at its' heart a moral value - an opinion - that we have decided is more intrinsically valuable than it's opposite.

  2. #42
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    Re: Should People Who Believe in Fate be Banned from Government?

    If we're going to allow people who believe in imaginary friends in the sky into government, we might as well allow every other wingnut, irrational crazy too.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  3. #43
    Educator Black_Zawisza's Avatar
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    Re: Should People Who Believe in Fate be Banned from Government?

    Hell, I've been trying to get banned from government for years! Absolutely! I am now officially a fatalist.
    Statist silliness of the day:
    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    All this talk about "dominion over a third person" is libertarianistic goobledy-gook. "dominion over a third person" means that the 3rd person is "controlled", and our govt does not control people.

  4. #44
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    Re: Should People Who Believe in Fate be Banned from Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It is an a priori belief about the nature of the world - many faiths engage in fatalism, believing that the end of the world is set.
    A priori beliefs are deontological, not teleological. Religion is based on intelligent design appeals to the aesthetically agreeable, beautiful, and sublime. That requires learning from experience, not thinking before you act.

    Christians, for example, as well as Muslims and Jews. Many believe in fatalism of a more individual and particular nature, such as Presbyterians and other Calvinists.
    This is induction. For comparison, prohibiting the color blue doesn't discriminate against squares which happen to be blue. Squares can be other colors, nor is blue limited to just squares.

    Prohibiting fatalism doesn't discriminate against religions which happen to believe in it. Does prohibiting murder discriminate against religions which tolerate that too?

    What I think you are trying to ask is "Should those who accept a Hegelian view of history" be allowed to govern. In which case the answer is "also yes", as A) it is up to the American people whom we choose to govern us - we are sovereign and can do any dang thing we like and B) there is nothing inherently wrong with seeing history as progressing through stages of social/political/economic development.
    The problem here is how historicism is particularly subjective. It depends on what you believe proper progress is.

    If anything, tolerating historicism is the equivalent of tolerating witch hunts because minorities who believe history should progress in a different direction are discriminated against.
    Last edited by Daktoria; 08-27-12 at 10:58 AM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Should People Who Believe in Fate be Banned from Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ALL LAW makes this assumption. The law about speed limits suggests that some persons' opinions (an expert hired by the state) or a majority of peoples' opinions (if speed limits are set locally) about how fast you can safely drive are more valuable than the opinion of the 17 year old who thinks he is indestructible. Every law has at its' heart a moral value - an opinion - that we have decided is more intrinsically valuable than it's opposite.
    Eh... jurisprudence can be analytic instead of dialectic. Instead of merely taking people's opinions as authoritative, we can evaluate people's judgments as complete and consistent. Those judgments which accommodate 100% of necessity-contingency relationships while prohibiting contingencies that make necessities self-destructive are permissible. Those judgments which do not are discriminating, and therefore, prohibitive.

    This is why fatalism is prohibited - it depends on free will to be believed in, but then denies free will.

    Similarly, we set speed limits because people who drive recklessly on roads destroy the driving experience.

  6. #46
    Educator Rosie1's Avatar
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    Re: Should People Who Believe in Fate be Banned from Government?

    I suppose that's the main problem I have with religions, the fatalism. However, life is fatal, with or without the belief. We all die (every creature amongst us). But, how you let your beliefs influence your work and your politics is a biggy. Optomists probably do a better job improving things in ways that aren't going to stress others.
    "The measure off intelligence is the ability to change." Albert Einstein

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