View Poll Results: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody rights?

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Thread: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody[W:56]

  1. #231
    Advisor NitroHangover's Avatar
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    Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    I'm not saying that mothers are more essential or more vital than fathers. I'm not saying that mothers are better parents than fathers, or that they should have more parental rights than fathers. I am saying that every child that is ever born has a mother long before it is even physically possible for them to have a father and that a man cannot become a father until a woman chooses to bless him with a child. This isn't sexism, this is simple biological reality that our society has ignored to our detriment.
    Clarify.
    Yes, they do, but only once they become fathers. A teaspoon of genetic material does not make them so.
    It does, actually. But ok. I understand your sentiment, so for the sake of argument let's say I concede that. Then by the same token, neither does carrying to term and giving birth make one a mother. I'm sure your friendly neighborhood social worker could cite a few million examples for you.
    Yes, it is. And I am opposed to the practice. The fact that women can force men into fatherhood is an abomination that should be eradicated with all possible vigor-- but it is not a justification to allow a man to impose himself upon a woman and in effect steal her child simply by virtue of the circumstances of the child's conception.
    How is a man demanding the right to be a father to his child "imposing himself on a woman"? How is shared custody "stealing" "her" child?
    What you are arguing here is the reason that courts in our country would even have to consider such a ridiculous and morally abhorrent notion as rapists having parental rights to the products of their crimes.
    Well that's pretty funny, coming from you. Aren't you the person who just said that a female rapist should have more of an innate right to parent a child than the child's father, a normal man?

  2. #232
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    Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

    Quote Originally Posted by NitroHangover View Post
    Clarify.
    Our entire ridiculous and tyrannical child support regime has contributed dramatically to the number of children born out of wedlock and thus to the number of women and children on the welfare rolls-- all of which contributes to economic drain, criminal activity, and a general condition of moral degradation.

    Quote Originally Posted by NitroHangover View Post
    It does, actually. But ok. I understand your sentiment, so for the sake of argument let's say I concede that. Then by the same token, neither does carrying to term and giving birth make one a mother. I'm sure your friendly neighborhood social worker could cite a few million examples for you.
    Are you seriously trying to argue that you don't see the difference between a few minutes of pleasurable exercise and the months of discomfort that it takes to gestate a viable child? A teaspoon of genetic material versus an infant's entire biomass?

    I'm not saying that mothers are automatically better parents. I'm saying that a mother is a mother for nine months before it is possible for a father to exist at all-- and thus why the mother should have the right to decide for her child who will be allowed to be the child's father. I believe in equal parental rights between mothers and fathers, but it is only at that point that it makes any kind of logical or moral sense for a father to have any rights at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by NitroHangover View Post
    How is a man demanding the right to be a father to his child "imposing himself on a woman"? How is shared custody "stealing" "her" child?
    It's not his kid. Any more than if the child had been sired via donated sperm. It's her kid until she offers it to a man and he accepts-- only then is it their kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by NitroHangover View Post
    Well that's pretty funny, coming from you. Aren't you the person who just said that a female rapist should have more of an innate right to parent a child than the child's father, a normal man?
    She didn't rape the kid, and by the time the father's a concern, she's been mothering it for nine months. Yes.

  3. #233
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    Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    Our entire ridiculous and tyrannical child support regime has contributed dramatically to the number of children born out of wedlock and thus to the number of women and children on the welfare rolls-- all of which contributes to economic drain, criminal activity, and a general condition of moral degradation.
    Whaaaaa? What does any of that have to do with not recognizing that a father is a father until a mother decides he's a father? That kind of sentiment will only further break down the traditional family. It will lead to MORE children born out of wedlock, and raised without fathers.
    Are you seriously trying to argue that you don't see the difference between a few minutes of pleasurable exercise and the months of discomfort that it takes to gestate a viable child? A teaspoon of genetic material versus an infant's entire biomass?
    I see a difference, sure. But not in any way that automatically qualifies one as a parent while disqualifying the other just by virtue of the fact that they have different biological contributions to conception and incubation. Your argument is that a father does not become a father until he begins doing fatherly things, but a mother is a mother before the kid is even born. Tell that to babies who are dumped in dumpsters immediately after birth, or born with birth defects due to drinking and drug use, or abandoned to be raised by grandparents or the foster system. My point is, going through a pregnancy and birth do NOT make a woman a mother, by the same token that busting a nut with a winning swimmer does not make a man a father. But like I said originally, I don't buy that argument in the first place. I think both mother and father are confirmed by DNA at the moment of conception, period, and neither one has more of an inherent right to parent that child than the other. I'm just looking for consistency in your argument, and I haven't found it.
    I'm not saying that mothers are automatically better parents. I'm saying that a mother is a mother for nine months before it is possible for a father to exist at all-- and thus why the mother should have the right to decide for her child who will be allowed to be the child's father. I believe in equal parental rights between mothers and fathers, but it is only at that point that it makes any kind of logical or moral sense for a father to have any rights at all.
    No, you do NOT believe in equal parenting rights. Are you listening to yourself? You believe men have ZERO parenting rights unless "allowed" by the mother. How on God's green Earth is that equal, in your estimation? Oh, and the mother already had "the right to decide for the child who will be allowed to be the child's father". She made that decision before, during, and after conception. Her choice is made, and his role as father is cemented by nature. Her choice in the matter is over now. The child is already half him.
    It's not his kid. Any more than if the child had been sired via donated sperm. It's her kid until she offers it to a man and he accepts-- only then is it their kid.
    It IS his kid. For the exact same reason it's hers.
    She didn't rape the kid, and by the time the father's a concern, she's been mothering it for nine months. Yes.
    You can't be serious, man. If you are seriously THAT sexist, that you believe a confirmed rapist, with all the disgusting, dangerous implications that come along with a person who would do that to another person, has more of an inherent right to parent a child than a normal, innocent man just by virtue of the fact that he is a man, then I will happily agree to end this conversation now.
    Last edited by NitroHangover; 08-28-12 at 03:16 AM.

  4. #234
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    Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

    Quote Originally Posted by NitroHangover View Post
    I see a difference, sure. But not in any way that automatically qualifies one as a parent while disqualifying the other just by virtue of the fact that they have different biological contributions to conception and incubation. Your argument is that a father does not become a father until he begins doing fatherly things, but a mother is a mother before the kid is even born.
    That's because the mother's doing motherly things before the kid is even born. She can be a good mother or a bad mother or a homicidal mother, but until that kid is born, she's the only parent it's got.

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    Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    Only if it's the mother. You want to call me sexist, go for it-- biology is sexist. The mother bears all of the responsibility and the hardship of gestating and delivering the child; it is by virtue of those acts that parental rights naturally reside with her, and not by the act of conception.
    I disagree, Viktyr. The act of giving birth does not a mother make, any more than the act of donating sperm does not a father make. A woman should never be forced to have her rapist in her life, giving that rapist access to the child conceived of that rape. A rapist is a violent criminal offender. Biological fatherhood does not mean he should have parental rights.

    Likewise, a female who rapes a man is a violent criminal offender. Biological motherhood does not mean she should have parental rights.

    The best interests of the child should always been paramount. A child's best interest is not served by having a violent criminal offender in his/her life. Unfit parents lose their parental rights all the time, in the best interest of the child. IMO, a violent criminal rapist is an unfit parent, regardless of gender.

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