View Poll Results: Should we fault Romney if he paid 0% taxes? Is the fair tax better than current?

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  • Yes fault him. Yes Fair tax is better

    3 15.00%
  • Yes fault him. No Fair tax is worse

    4 20.00%
  • Don't fault him. Yes Fair tax is better

    10 50.00%
  • Don't fault him. No Fair tax is worse

    3 15.00%
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Thread: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

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    Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    Let's assume Romney releases his returns willingly and shows that he paid 0% income tax.

    There are two scenarios that this happened: legally or illegally. If done illegally, then obviously his run is over, so there is no debate to be had there.

    But if it was done legally, which is the point the democrats are REALLY trying to imply (or flat out accuse), is this a negative on Romney?

    He followed the law and managed the laws in the most efficient and cost-effective manner. These seem like positive character traits to me. It also seems like a TERRIBLY broken system. But I wouldn't fault Romney for the system being broken.

    Which leads to a second question - Wouldn't a fair tax be preferable over this so-easily broken system that we have? The rich would pay much more in taxes and you guarantee their tax rate won't be less than that of the middle-class. Even if you think they ought to pay more percentage (which is debatable) - the system becomes corrupt far too easily under the current IRS-Based structure - how is THIS better?

    So the question is (not if it would hurt him politically), if Romney paid 0% in taxes, should we fault him for it? Is the 'fair tax' a better system?

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    Re: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    There are a few different questions which need to be addressed here.

    The first order of business would be to address the Romney Campaign's response to the whole issue, which has been basically to claim that it's irrelevant and the more important issue is the economy--jobs, deficit spending, debt, etc. They're right that the economy is one of the most important issues that we ought to be discussing, but both Romney's and Ryan's income taxes are relevant to this question (as are Obama's and Biden's). The reason candidates release these records is so that the public can have some information about their micro-economic behavior, from which to divine what their real beliefs about the overall economy are, and what their pursuant actions are likely to be. If it is true that Romney paid 0% taxes (or even if, as he claims, he only paid 13%), that's indicative of someone who is unlikely to take the necessary steps to revive our economy. It's indicative of a person who believes that the very wealthy should pay as little as possible and exploit as many loopholes as possible.

    I would say the same of Obama's tax returns, or Biden's, or Paul's, etc. These are people who seek to become public servants, and as such, I want to figure out who is most likely to actually serve our society as a whole, rather than try to figure out how much advantage they can personally gain. If Romney paid 0% tax (or even 13%), that tells me that he isn't interested in becoming a public servant. He's interested in becoming a public master. If I want to find out what he will do as public master, I have not only these data points, but his stated intentions and policies, and a variety of other data points as well.

    So, yes, I think he would clearly be at fault for paying 0%. He's at fault for paying 13%, and doubly so for seeming to believe it's OK for someone like him to pay 13%.

    The next question would be to talk about the "fair" tax. If by that you mean a flat tax proposal, it would clearly not be fair. The rich benefit disproportionately from the laws, rules, and conventions of our society, and should repay a larger part of that prosperity back to that society.

    With that said, I think that the tax system is very broken in terms of what it pays for. I have put my money where my mouth is and paid more in taxes each year since the financial crisis hit than I should have. But I detest, partially, having to do so, because I know part of that money goes to perpetuate ridiculous and even harmful programs. One suggestion I have (this may have been suggested elsewhere by someone else; I'm sure I'm not the first person to have thought of this) is to let the IRS set tax percentages as they will. But then let citizens allocate how much of their contribution goes to which programs, and hold congress to the result.

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    Re: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    1. the likelihood Romney paid zero percent approaches zero.

    2. a thirty percent sales tax isn't a solution to anything, and is a non-starter.

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    Re: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    But if it was done legally, which is the point the democrats are REALLY trying to imply (or flat out accuse), is this a negative on Romney?
    Yes. The contention is taxing the rich less will lead to more jobs here through some form of magic that's never actually explained. But all our jobs are going off shore because our rules and taxes and blah blah blah. IF he paid zero percent legally, then there is a method to do so, and he would not be the only rich person doing so. And in such a case we can look to see where the hell our jobs are at. If the rich aren't getting taxed, then why would our jobs be going overseas? It blows a hole in the contention that lower tax rate for the rich benefits us all and would highlight these arguments for what they are; the establishment of the aristocracy.
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    Re: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    It's a negative to perception, yes. However, the chances of it being zero are, as mentioned, zero. You really can't effectively weasel out of capital gains taxes, which is what many of these rich folks get their wages taxed at.

    You can close loopholes if you want, but others will open up, and there will be dry periods of non-investment in those down times.

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    Re: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    1. the likelihood Romney paid zero percent approaches zero.

    2. a thirty percent sales tax isn't a solution to anything, and is a non-starter.
    For a year or two it is quite realistic

    Given the size of his investments, his deductions on his investment loss's in 2008 and 2009 could have been large enough in those two years to ensure he paid 0% income tax (and possibly carry some foward)
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    Re: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes. The contention is taxing the rich less will lead to more jobs here through some form of magic that's never actually explained. But all our jobs are going off shore because our rules and taxes and blah blah blah. IF he paid zero percent legally, then there is a method to do so, and he would not be the only rich person doing so. And in such a case we can look to see where the hell our jobs are at. If the rich aren't getting taxed, then why would our jobs be going overseas? It blows a hole in the contention that lower tax rate for the rich benefits us all and would highlight these arguments for what they are; the establishment of the aristocracy.
    Please don't confuse corporate taxes on foreign profits with personal income taxes. If I were a corporation making a profit internationally, I would not pull it back into the US to be double-taxed either. I would keep it international, and in order to expand, that also means expansion costs are spent internationally. This is a completely separate issue.

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    Re: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    Let's assume Romney releases his returns willingly and shows that he paid 0% income tax.

    There are two scenarios that this happened: legally or illegally. If done illegally, then obviously his run is over, so there is no debate to be had there.

    But if it was done legally, which is the point the democrats are REALLY trying to imply (or flat out accuse), is this a negative on Romney?

    He followed the law and managed the laws in the most efficient and cost-effective manner. These seem like positive character traits to me. It also seems like a TERRIBLY broken system. But I wouldn't fault Romney for the system being broken.

    Which leads to a second question - Wouldn't a fair tax be preferable over this so-easily broken system that we have? The rich would pay much more in taxes and you guarantee their tax rate won't be less than that of the middle-class. Even if you think they ought to pay more percentage (which is debatable) - the system becomes corrupt far too easily under the current IRS-Based structure - how is THIS better?

    So the question is (not if it would hurt him politically), if Romney paid 0% in taxes, should we fault him for it? Is the 'fair tax' a better system?
    Can't fault the man for working the loopholes. His only crime was pissing off liberals. We'll just hope he only loses the presidency if the Left gets its way.

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    Re: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    Please don't confuse corporate taxes on foreign profits with personal income taxes. If I were a corporation making a profit internationally, I would not pull it back into the US to be double-taxed either. I would keep it international, and in order to expand, that also means expansion costs are spent internationally. This is a completely separate issue.
    The argument advanced is that if we tax the rich less, it will come back to us. Is that a "completely separate issue" than Romney, a rich person, paying zero tax legally? No, it is not. Please don't obfuscate the issue.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Let's assume Romney paid 0% income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    There are a few different questions which need to be addressed here.

    The first order of business would be to address the Romney Campaign's response to the whole issue, which has been basically to claim that it's irrelevant and the more important issue is the economy--jobs, deficit spending, debt, etc. They're right that the economy is one of the most important issues that we ought to be discussing, but both Romney's and Ryan's income taxes are relevant to this question (as are Obama's and Biden's). The reason candidates release these records is so that the public can have some information about their micro-economic behavior, from which to divine what their real beliefs about the overall economy are, and what their pursuant actions are likely to be. If it is true that Romney paid 0% taxes (or even if, as he claims, he only paid 13%), that's indicative of someone who is unlikely to take the necessary steps to revive our economy. It's indicative of a person who believes that the very wealthy should pay as little as possible and exploit as many loopholes as possible.

    I would say the same of Obama's tax returns, or Biden's, or Paul's, etc. These are people who seek to become public servants, and as such, I want to figure out who is most likely to actually serve our society as a whole, rather than try to figure out how much advantage they can personally gain. If Romney paid 0% tax (or even 13%), that tells me that he isn't interested in becoming a public servant. He's interested in becoming a public master. If I want to find out what he will do as public master, I have not only these data points, but his stated intentions and policies, and a variety of other data points as well.

    So, yes, I think he would clearly be at fault for paying 0%. He's at fault for paying 13%, and doubly so for seeming to believe it's OK for someone like him to pay 13%.

    The next question would be to talk about the "fair" tax. If by that you mean a flat tax proposal, it would clearly not be fair. The rich benefit disproportionately from the laws, rules, and conventions of our society, and should repay a larger part of that prosperity back to that society.

    With that said, I think that the tax system is very broken in terms of what it pays for. I have put my money where my mouth is and paid more in taxes each year since the financial crisis hit than I should have. But I detest, partially, having to do so, because I know part of that money goes to perpetuate ridiculous and even harmful programs. One suggestion I have (this may have been suggested elsewhere by someone else; I'm sure I'm not the first person to have thought of this) is to let the IRS set tax percentages as they will. But then let citizens allocate how much of their contribution goes to which programs, and hold congress to the result.

    Those are some HIGH standards you hold Romney to. Usually I criticize people for holding such unrealistic standards, but seeing as you hold yourself to similar standards, there is no hypocrisy in your disapproval. I personally take EVERY single cent I can afford to back from the taxes that I've paid in. I'm consistently disgusted that I'm able to do so, but I certainly won't be in the minority helping to pay for others who won't pay for themselves. As such a person, I would find it hypocritical to think negatively of Romney for doing the same thing I do. You, however, have that right, IMO. Kudos to you.

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