• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is the United States a dystopia?

Is the United States a dystopia?


  • Total voters
    23

Luna Tick

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
2,148
Reaction score
867
Location
Nebraska
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Is the United States a dystopia?
 
Yes, though not in the standard fashion. In fact it's a dystopia at the other end of the spectrum..... Instead of being destroyed by totalitarianism or the like it's deastroyed by the openness, freedoms, and liberties of the society. It's a wonderful example of what happens when you let the lunatics run the asylum with no rules whatsoever.
 
If you want to see a dystopia, look at North Korea. Then try to say that the US is a dystopia.
 
If you want to see a dystopia, look at North Korea. Then try to say that the US is a dystopia.

It's the opposite side of the same coin.

You suggest that North Korea is too restrictive, too controlling, etc.... and I suggest the US is has too much freedom, liberty, etc...
 
If you want to see a dystopia, look at North Korea. Then try to say that the US is a dystopia.

If you really want to discuss American society/culture/economics/politics it really only makes sense to compare it to other industrialized democracies. If our country is such hot **** then we don't need to compare it to crappy totalitarian slave states. Next to North Korea obviously we're not a dystopia. Next to, say, Finland, we are.
 
i'd argue that the US is more of a duopoly of competing utopian models. unfortunately and obviously, a duopoly is not enough to triangulate anything that approaches utopia.
 
If you really want to discuss American society/culture/economics/politics it really only makes sense to compare it to other industrialized democracies. If our country is such hot **** then we don't need to compare it to crappy totalitarian slave states. Next to North Korea obviously we're not a dystopia. Next to, say, Finland, we are.

I suggest you look up the meaning of "dystopia" if you think either the United States or Finland even comes close to it. :roll:
 
It's the opposite side of the same coin.

You suggest that North Korea is too restrictive, too controlling, etc.... and I suggest the US is has too much freedom, liberty, etc...

Uh huh. Why don't you get caught up in the American legal system and see how you fare?
 
I suggest you look up the meaning of "dystopia" if you think either the United States or Finland even comes close to it. :roll:

How you got that Finland is a dystopia from my post completely eludes me.
 
Last edited:
How you got that Finland is a dystopia from my post completely eludes me.

Clearly you don't understand what a dystopia is if you think the United States is one. It's not defined as "a country with more social and/or economic problems than Finland." :roll:
 
Clearly you don't understand what a dystopia is if you think the United States is one. It's not defined as "a country with more social and/or economic problems than Finland." :roll:

Well, at least you got that I was saying we were a dystopia in comparison to Finland this time, rather than thinking I was claiming that Finland is a dystopia. Anyway, let's break out the ol Merriam Webster, shall we?

Ahem.

dys·to·pia
noun \(ˌ)dis-ˈtō-pē-ə\
1
: an imaginary place where people lead dehumanized and often fearful lives in comparison to Finland.
2
: anti-utopia 2

Seriously, though, besides my little addition there that definition was real. If you look at the American legal system, with plea bargaining, the near omnipotent powers granted to the police in the drug war and the growing powers of the government in the War on Terror you stand a better odds with major surgery than with being caught up in the American legal system. Also, corporatism, pollution and corruption simply isn't the problem in Finland that it is here. So compared to Finland? We're definitely more dystopic.

But you're not really reading my posts, so you probably got from the above that "we're a worse dystopian country than North Korea."
 
If the US is a dystopia, then pretty much the whole world's a dystopia.

In all seriousness, it's not. A dystopian society is an awful place through and through. I enjoy living in America and there plenty of other people that do, to call it "dystopia" is taking it way too far. The definition thereof doesn't fit the US at all.
 
Well, at least you got that I was saying we were a dystopia in comparison to Finland this time, rather than thinking I was claiming that Finland is a dystopia. Anyway, let's break out the ol Merriam Webster, shall we?

Ahem.

dys·to·pia
noun \(ˌ)dis-ˈtō-pē-ə\
1
: an imaginary place where people lead dehumanized and often fearful lives in comparison to Finland.
2
: anti-utopia 2

Seriously, though, besides my little addition there that definition was real. If you look at the American legal system, with plea bargaining, the near omnipotent powers granted to the police in the drug war and the growing powers of the government in the War on Terror you stand a better odds with major surgery than with being caught up in the American legal system. Also, corporatism, pollution and corruption simply isn't the problem

Yeah, every country has problems. **** happens. That doesn't make it a dystopia.

So compared to Finland? We're definitely more dystopic.

"Dystopia" has a specific meaning, and you don't normally characterize extreme words like that by comparing two examples which neither bear any resemblance to the word. That would be as silly as saying that Ghana is more of a utopia than Zimbabwe. :roll:
 
Last edited:
Yeah, every country has problems. **** happens.

Seriously?

That doesn't make it a dystopia.

"Dystopia" has a specific meaning, and you don't normally characterize extreme words like that by comparing two examples which neither bear any resemblance to the word. That would be as silly as saying that Ghana is more of a utopia than Zimbabwe. :roll:

There's no absolutist definition that says, "Okay, your country has x number of terrified citizens, x number of polluted lakes, and government torture is legal in over 60% of criminal cases. Congratulations! You qualify for dystopia!" Its definition is made up of entirely subjective qualifiers.
 
By the way, why don't you read up on the Finnish legal and penal system (here's a peek at the latter) and tell me that in comparison to this America's far reaching rights to search and arrest you, plea bargaining, and de facto state and society sanctioned prison rape (in addition to the fact that if you're ever incarcerated you're never allowed to vote ever again), that America's legal system isn't ****ing terrifying and thus deserving of comparatively dystopian status.

But no, you're right. North Korea is worse. So, you know, go us.
 
Last edited:
I'd say it's not an out and out dystopia... but it's not the utopia it makes itself out to be sometimes. Sometimes it feels like the country is a starlet who has let her own press releases go to her head... then she looks in a mirror and freaks out that her face isn't as Photoshop smooth as it is in the magazines. We seem to freak out a lot.
 
By the way, why don't you read up on the Finnish legal and penal system (here's a peek at the latter) and tell me that in comparison to this America's far reaching rights to search and arrest you, plea bargaining, and de facto state and society sanctioned prison rape (in addition to the fact that if you're ever incarcerated you're never allowed to vote ever again), that America's legal system isn't ****ing terrifying and thus deserving of comparatively dystopian status.

But no, you're right. North Korea is worse. So, you know, go us.

Finland isn't a balkanized collection of squabbling ethnicities, religions, and creeds. Finland is a nation-state of people content to live together, and Finland's borders follow the "natural map". The Natural Map of the Middle East
 
If dystopia is relative, we're certainly not a dystopia (things can certainly get much worse). With many Americans living in an air-conditioned house, not starving, with internet access and enough wealth to be considered a small fortune in dozens of countries, we're not exactly on the verge of becoming a dystopia ;).

Sure, our legal system could be considered ineffectual, we're heavily in debt, etc. but has the government:
a) broken down into anarchy and led to the collapse of the economy, wide-spread starvation, and the dominance of crime?
or
b) established an iron grip and maintained absolute control of our lives?

If we're being honest with ourselves, we're, by and large, living the high-life, with, compared to many countries and nearly every time period, a fairly decent balance of government control. I recall the typical "would you rather be a king in the middle ages or a middle class citizen in America, today" and the common answer: a long pregnant pause, and the admittance: "middle class citizen in America, today.'
 
If dystopia is relative, we're certainly not a dystopia (things can certainly get much worse). With many Americans living in an air-conditioned house, not starving, with internet access and enough wealth to be considered a small fortune in dozens of countries, we're not exactly on the verge of becoming a dystopia ;).

Sure, our legal system could be considered ineffectual, we're heavily in debt, etc. but has the government:
a) broken down into anarchy and led to the collapse of the economy, wide-spread starvation, and the dominance of crime?
or
b) established an iron grip and maintained absolute control of our lives?

If we're being honest with ourselves, we're, by and large, living the high-life, with, compared to many countries and nearly every time period, a fairly decent balance of government control. I recall the typical "would you rather be a king in the middle ages or a middle class citizen in America, today" and the common answer: a long pregnant pause, and the admittance: "middle class citizen in America, today.'

When gauging how far I've come in my career, is it more informative to use a)other people in the same field I work in, or b)homeless people? Going by the former you can point to specific benchmarks I have and haven't achieved. Going by the latter, I'll always be a fantastic success, because hey, I'm not homeless.

Comparing myself to a homeless person is a great way to be thankful for what I have in life and for the tragedies I've avoided, but it doesn't provide for concrete ways to strive and improve myself. This is why I find comparing the United States to wartorn or completely despotic areas like North Korea pointless except as a means of helping us to avoid looking at ways we could improve. It also conveniently helps us to avoid comparing ourselves to countries that are clearly better in several areas.
 
When gauging how far I've come in my career, is it more informative to use a)other people in the same field I work in, or b)homeless people? Going by the former you can point to specific benchmarks I have and haven't achieved. Going by the latter, I'll always be a fantastic success, because hey, I'm not homeless.

Comparing myself to a homeless person is a great way to be thankful for what I have in life and for the tragedies I've avoided, but it doesn't provide for concrete ways to strive and improve myself. This is why I find comparing the United States to wartorn or completely despotic areas like North Korea pointless except as a means of helping us to avoid looking at ways we could improve. It also conveniently helps us to avoid comparing ourselves to countries that are clearly better in several areas.

I always thought that the term "dystopia" was an absolute term.

Cardinal's Dictionary said:
an imaginary place where people lead dehumanized and often fearful lives

As an imaginary place, it is irrelevant what other countries or time periods are like. When I called upon such examples, it was to point out that I haven't heard anyone call, say, Feudal Europe a dystopia, and it is clear that we live in a markedly better society (in almost every way) compared to Feudal Europe.

Nonetheless, comparing the United States to a country that could possibly be a "dystopia" seems to make more sense than comparing it to a country that is similar, as dystopia-ism isn't relative. If scarcity didn't exist, dystopias probably wouldn't exist, yet, by your criteria, it seems that dystopias would exist, because some countries are always going to be better than others. I don't the term "dystopia" is relative, but rather absolute (or as absolute as a word can be, since it is all interpretive anyway xD)

Edit: an analogy might be this:
When seeing if GREEN is RED, you don't compare GREEN to BLUE to see which one is closer to red. You compare GREEN to RED directly.
 
Last edited:
When gauging how far I've come in my career, is it more informative to use a)other people in the same field I work in, or b)homeless people? Going by the former you can point to specific benchmarks I have and haven't achieved. Going by the latter, I'll always be a fantastic success, because hey, I'm not homeless.

Comparing myself to a homeless person is a great way to be thankful for what I have in life and for the tragedies I've avoided, but it doesn't provide for concrete ways to strive and improve myself. This is why I find comparing the United States to wartorn or completely despotic areas like North Korea pointless except as a means of helping us to avoid looking at ways we could improve. It also conveniently helps us to avoid comparing ourselves to countries that are clearly better in several areas.

That's okay when looking for a way to improve oneself, but not when merely judging wither US is a dystopia. I feel in a situation like this we need to primarily compare the country against others we could actually categorize as dystopian.
 
Back
Top Bottom