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Thread: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

  1. #61
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    This is the fallacy of Rand, raising up the irrational as rational, labeling selfishness as virtue, branding the inhuman as human. It's no wonder it appeals to so many sick and damaged minds.
    Machiavelli did it better. And, of course, Nietzsche. And Dostoyevsky.

    But Anthem is not bad.

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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    1. Insofar as Randians are concerned, I agree. But human beings have the potential to become more than mere animals, if they act selflessly and live for others, in accordance with reason.

    2. This discussion has nothing to do with government, don't confuse the issue.
    1. I find your desire for the potential you speak of to be quite laudable but short sighted. I also contend that forcing people to be what YOU want them to be is selfish in it's own right.

    2. In respect to "Atlas Shrugged", at least, the government had everything to do with the issue of the novel...that is, people's desire to live to their own desires and self-sufficiency and other's use of government to bend them to THEIR own selfish desires.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Machiavelli did it better. And, of course, Nietzsche. And Dostoyevsky.

    But Anthem is not bad.
    I agree, Anthem is a fun read. I can't really find fault with Rand as a novelist.

  4. #64
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    I found her tedious and generally didn't finish. Anthem is short. Like Trotsky (and Hubbard), her short stuff was the best for me.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 08-16-12 at 01:26 AM.

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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    1. I find your desire for the potential you speak of to be quite laudable but short sighted. I also contend that forcing people to be what YOU want them to be is selfish in it's own right.
    Well, I really think we are nearing agreement, now. I agree with you that nobody should be forced to behave in any particular way, people have a fundamental right to be selfish and animalistic. I would never condone, for example, forcing somebody to give to charity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    2. In respect to "Atlas Shrugged", at least, the government had everything to do with the issue of the novel...that is, people's desire to live to their own desires and self-sufficiency and other's use of government to bend them to THEIR own selfish desires.
    I understand that, and the reason I say that government is not the issue is because I agree with much of Rand's views on government. It is coincidental, of course. Her laissez-faire politics come from a principle of selfishness. My own libertarian political views come from my morals; I think laissez-faire capitalism and minimal government are the golden rule as applied to politics. If every man is an end unto himself, the initiation of coercive force cannot be justified. People have a right to make their own mistakes.

    I am a fairly orthodox libertarian, but I abhor selfishness. "Libertarian" does not mean "libertine."
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 08-16-12 at 01:29 AM.

  6. #66
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's no wonder it appeals to so many sick and damaged minds.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Machiavelli did it better. And, of course, Nietzsche.
    I'm pretty sure that's Godwin.

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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    In regards to Ayn Rand...the proper word is "self-sufficiency"...not selfishness.
    Not the case. Ayn Rand's book "The Virtue of Selfishness" makes this quite clear. The word is selfishness.

  8. #68
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Hardly. That's precisely what you and Rand are doing: treating selfishness as if it is rational self interest, when it is merely the irrational, animalistic pursuit of one's own self interest.
    Again, you seem to be confusing self-interest with selfishness. Whose responsibility is it to insure that you succeed? Society's, or your own? Self-interest is not irrational. Believing that you have the responsibility to sacrifice yourself, or have others sacrifice themselves for you, is irrational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Sacrificing for others definition of good. I agree with Rand on one thing, that a person is an end unto himself. Every person. It is this maxim from which all morality flows.
    It may be your own definition of good, but good and bad are relative terms, and are agreed to by majority consent, and nothing else. My definition is that the concept of good implies that I cause no harm to others by my actions. My definition of bad implies that I actively cause harm. Inaction does not cause harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Morality is derived from reason, but not in the asinine selfishness Rand proposes. If one exists for one's own sake, one is merely an animal. It is rational only if one is wholly solipsistic, for it ignores the fact that other people have value; that everyone is an end, not a means. If one treats only oneself as the end, and all others as a means, one is defying reason, and living like an irrational animal.
    Morality is derived from majority consent, and exists in order to maintain control. I can see where your misunderstanding of Rand's concepts is in error. You are assuming that one can only treat oneself as an end by using others, which is not the case at all, and is apparent in the initial quote from Rand that I cited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    If one exists for others, and holds others up as higher than himself, one is living the only truly rational way.
    No, that is irrational. Self-sacrifice is not rational as a basis for living. It may make you feel good, but it denies your own worth, which is not less than that of anyone else.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  9. #69
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Ayn Rand simply created a fictitious political ideology of selfishness to create a story around it.

    L. Ron Hubbard created a fictional religion to sell.

    Both were delusional and narcisisisitic and it is revealed in their writing imo.

    Interesting connection. I think you are on to something. Both authors wrote in ways that glossed over the logical problems in their proposed ideologies, and lead people to over-estimate the plausibility of the systems involved.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  10. #70
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Again, you seem to be confusing self-interest with selfishness. Whose responsibility is it to insure that you succeed? Society's, or your own? Self-interest is not irrational. Believing that you have the responsibility to sacrifice yourself, or have others sacrifice themselves for you, is irrational.
    Lizzie, you're getting lost in your own convoluted argument. Every man is an end unto himself. To act selfishly is to treat oneself as the only end and to treat all others as a means, which is to act in contradiction of the maxim that every man is an end unto himself. It is thus irrational to behave selfishly. Self sacrifice for others is the rational outcome of the belief that all people are ends into themselves.


    It may be your own definition of good, but good and bad are relative terms, and are agreed to by majority consent, and nothing else. My definition is that the concept of good implies that I cause no harm to others by my actions. My definition of bad implies that I actively cause harm. Inaction does not cause harm.
    Funny hearing a self-described "objectivist" arguing that morality is relative. You do realize that this undercuts your entire argument, don't you?


    Morality is derived from majority consent, and exists in order to maintain control. I can see where your misunderstanding of Rand's concepts is in error. You are assuming that one can only treat oneself as an end by using others, which is not the case at all, and is apparent in the initial quote from Rand that I cited.
    If you do not value selfless sacrifice for the same of others, then you do not value treating others as an end unto themselves, because one necessarily follows from the other. Self interested actions may be a right under the law, but helping oneself at the expense of others is, by definition, treating others as a means to a selfish end.

    No, that is irrational. Self-sacrifice is not rational as a basis for living. It may make you feel good, but it denies your own worth, which is not less than that of anyone else.
    Self sacrifice is necessary as an acknowledgement of the worth of others. Randianism is utterly incoherent unless it is based on the solipsistic belief that only ones self exists, others if a Randianism acknowledges tha others exist and are to be treates as ends unto themselves, it is irrational to treat them as means to self interested ends. Rand fails on the most elementary principles of logic.

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