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Thread: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

  1. #51
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Have you read Rand?

    Relying on one's own abilities is not the objection people who want strong societies are making against Rand. She was operating on a false premise. Humans are not just rational or irrational ... they are are also social animals.

    Think Humanism v. Objectivism ... her story is justifying greed at all cost to others and making a case for selfishness. The stories Hubbard wrote or Rand wrote were simply stories written by megalomaniacs.
    Much like Rand, I prefer a society of self-sufficient people as opposed to a society that would attempt to force self-sufficient people to bend to it's will for the purpose of conformity. In short, I find the "government" of Rand's novels to be much greedier that the independent people...with the added despicable actions of enacting stupid, short-sighted laws.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  2. #52
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    shrug...

    To each his own.

    I enjoyed the novel.
    Fair enough...to each his own.

    Apparently it is one of Romney's favorites...whatever that is worth.

  3. #53
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Rand is not merely talking about politics, but personal values as well. Minimal government to ensure the liberty of all people is ideal. But there is nothing laudable about selfishness. Selfishness is base and evil.
    shrug...

    You see someone working to satisfy their own self-interest as being selfish...I see them as being human.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  4. #54
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    shrug...

    You see someone working to satisfy their own self-interest as being selfish...I see them as being human.
    Quite the contrary, selfishness is animalistic. It is only in selflessness and sacrifice for others that one is truly human.

  5. #55
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    shrug...

    You see someone working to satisfy their own self-interest as being selfish...I see them as being human.
    THis sort of reminds me of a scene in ROAD WARRIOR where after Mel Gibson has fulfilled his promise to deliver a truck to the oil rig defenders he decides to leave. A defender calls him selfish and the leader of the group says no-HE IS AN HONORABLE MAN, he fulfilled his contract.

    Its not selfish to "fulfill your contracts" and want to do nothing more. what is selfish is impose costs on others without their consent

    and that is what the left does

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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Quite the contrary, selfishness is animalistic. It is only in selflessness and sacrifice for others that one is truly human.
    LIke many other issues you are confused.

    If I give to charity that is MY CHOICE. it is not charitable to demand someone give you something. and your claim I reject as your opinion which is just that-an opinion

  7. #57
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    No, it's not. Selfishness is the only applicable word. Self sufficiency has nothing to do with it, as Randians are perfectly content to benefit from others. A Randian is merely selfish, with all the base and ugly things that that words connotes.
    You seem to be confusing selfishness with rational self-interest.
    Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
    Last edited by lizzie; 08-16-12 at 12:58 AM.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    You seem to be confusing selfishness with rational self-interest.
    Hardly. That's precisely what you and Rand are doing: treating selfishness as if it is rational self interest, when it is merely the irrational, animalistic pursuit of one's own self interest.

    Sacrificing for others definition of good. I agree with Rand on one thing, that a person is an end unto himself. Every person. It is this maxim from which all morality flows.

    Morality is derived from reason, but not in the asinine selfishness Rand proposes. If one exists for one's own sake, one is merely an animal. It is rational only if one is wholly solipsistic, for it ignores the fact that other people have value; that everyone is an end, not a means. If one treats only oneself as the end, and all others as a means, one is defying reason, and living like an irrational animal.

    If one exists for others, and holds others up as higher than himself, one is living the only truly rational way. For this recognizes the value of others, and deference is given to the status of all other moral agents as an end unto themselves. This is the golden rule. It is the only truly rational way to live, because it respects to logic of that fundamental maxim of morality: every man is an end unto himself.

    This is the fallacy of Rand, raising up the irrational as rational, labeling selfishness as virtue, branding the inhuman as human. It's no wonder it appeals to so many sick and damaged minds.

  9. #59
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Quite the contrary, selfishness is animalistic. It is only in selflessness and sacrifice for others that one is truly human.
    Regardless your lofty opinions about people and how you WANT them to act...we are all, at root, animals and we will act accordingly. Tempered, of course, to some degree by society's influences.

    I prefer those influences to be as minimal as possible. In other words, I will work with society, but only insofar as it conforms to my own self-interest. What I find most abhorrent...and Rand agrees with me here...is a government that will manipulate society and attempt to force me to live against my own self-interest. I find that to be akin to dictatorship.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  10. #60
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    we are all, at root, animals and we will act accordingly.
    Insofar as Randians are concerned, I agree. But human beings have the potential to become more than mere animals, if they act selflessly and live for others, in accordance with reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I prefer those influences to be as minimal as possible. In other words, I will work with society, but only insofar as it conforms to my own self-interest. What I find most abhorrent...and Rand agrees with me here...is a government that will manipulate society and attempt to force me to live against my own self-interest. I find that to be akin to dictatorship.
    This discussion has nothing to do with government, don't confuse the issue.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 08-16-12 at 01:12 AM.

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