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Thread: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

  1. #201
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    "Ayn Rand was a joke. Her faux ideology is worse than a joke. Todays randroids would have to multiply their teeny tiny numbers by a factor of at least ten to work UP to the level of a joke."

    Always? Oh, I guess you think this is constructive, and not just rhetoric and insults.
    Actually that statement is right on the money and supported by facts and data. Just look at the declining election results for the Libertarian Party - the most identifiable randroid base in the nation - for its Presidential candidate ever four years and compare that to America and my description of TEENY TINY NUMBERS is accurate. Less than one-half of one percent is indeed TEENY TINY.

    My description of Rand as pushing a faux ideology is also apt and accurate. It defies any normal tools used in identifying poltical ideologies and is so all over the map that it borders on having a split personality. I distinctly remember in my senior year in college as a poli sci major taking the two classes in Political Philosophy. We had a randroid in our class and he made an attempt to have the writings of Rand included in our discussion. The prof who taught the class laid into him with such fervor and zeal that to say the poor guy was sliced and diced and then crushed and flushed would be an understatement. The prof took the basic elements of any political philosophy and demonstrated how the writings of Rand totally fell far far short of achieving that designation.

    And to identify things properly is always constructive.

    And please remember the context of my remarks were in this thread using a comparison of Hubbards ersatz sci-fi religious mumbo jumbo to that of Rand. While she comes off a bit saner and mundane in that comparison, there still is plenty of disfunction there just the same.
    Last edited by haymarket; 08-20-12 at 11:35 AM.
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  2. #202
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom View Post

    I am not sure what the point of this sentence is?
    By defining the conflict as one between the rich and the majority, the talented are still left out of the picture. They are the ones who should be idolized, not Rand's corporate moochers off talent. Ironically, the mythological Atlas held the world in place by brute force, which fits in with Rand's real-life corpocrat heroes rather than the underappreciated benefactors that she tried to make them look like. With the present distracting debate, we still disrespect and under-appreciate creative talent, except as either Cash Cows of the corporations or slaves of the public. I believe in John Galt's supremacy as an inventor, but not his subservience to his predatory bosses. If it hadn't been for a few High IQs, mankind would be living like animals and probably would have gone extinct. From the beginning, the reward for intelligence has been stolen by the rich, the powerful, and the priesthood, who claim that the genius is just the passive instrument of God and should get no special reward. Rand represents the priesthood of the religion of money.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

  3. #203
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually that statement is right on the money and supported by facts and data. Just look at the declining election results for the Libertarian Party - the most identifiable randroid base in the nation -
    I doubt that 5% of libertarians are 'Randoids'. You are giving this HS level book way too much credit. There's just a few HSers running about with this 'objectivist' nonsense, yet you act like they're all over the place while claiming that they barely exist. They are insignificant. Get over them. I mean, really, I haven't had anyone hit me with the objectivist action in over 20 years (since HS). So I don't understand how you get so worked up about it.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 08-20-12 at 01:18 PM.

  4. #204
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Well, you're acting like she started something. That's not really true. There's just a bunch of people too dim to read actual literature on the subject, and they attribute the Ubermensch to her. I mean, I guess there really are 'Randians' or 'Objectivists' but those are pretty much just HS people, right? I've never met an adult that has bought into Rand to the extent that they would actually describe their political perspective according to her rather boring fiction. Anyone who would should at least have the self respect to cite actual literature; for Pete's sake, The Prince is not a big book.

    In summary, I think you're giving her too much credit.
    She represents free trade and a laissez-faire capitalist reality. She was about the selfishness of the indvidual: kind of like plants, they grow according to their abilities to receive sun and water over others; that's how they dominate. Of course what she fails to mention is that a forest becomes a forest through the efforts of metaphysical collectivism: human beings are naturally collectists, that's how we survive. Therefore one man cannot do it without walking on the backs of others.
    The concept of this very country was to build a system wherein walking on the backs of others was all but outlawed.

    As I said earlier, Ayn Rand has no more a handle on utopia than Walt Disney.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    She represents free trade and a laissez-faire capitalist reality.
    Not really. She represents the 20th century Ubermensch writer. After Mach in the ~1500s and Niet in the 1800s.

    Free-trade and laissez-faire includes government regulations to prevent fraud, discrimination, externalities and such. Your generalization is merely a cheap shot at mainstream right-wing economics.

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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Many Conservatives would be dismayed if they had really read Rand, and discovered that Ryan was praising a pro-choice atheist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  7. #207
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Not really. She represents the 20th century Ubermensch writer. After Mach in the ~1500s and Niet in the 1800s.

    Free-trade and laissez-faire includes government regulations to prevent fraud, discrimination, externalities and such. Your generalization is merely a cheap shot at mainstream right-wing economics.
    I think not. To which Mach writing do you refer? I don't think that Rand and Nietzsche have anything in common other than the probability that Rand read his work.

    Right-wing econmcis have consistently been modeled on social darwinsim: a fact that I have touted for years and even president Obama is bringing it into the mainstream. Rand was a social darwinist, that's why I used the plant anology, yet as I said, she and the right-wing forget; convieniently in my view, that the metaphysical reality of collectivism trumps social darwinism. This fact is futher made true by the reality of supply and demand; can't have one without the other, and that by definition is collectivism. Moreover, it has been shown over and again, and put in the records that right-wing economic policies have led to nothing but ruin.

    So, I don't see how that is a cheap shot by any stretch of the imagination.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I think not. To which Mach writing do you refer? I don't think that Rand and Nietzsche have anything in common other than the probability that Rand read his work.
    Machiavelli, "The Prince". Anyway, I don't think you have any grasp of her writing except what 'Randoids' and their virulent enemies have told you. If you read her books, I'm afraid you've wasted your time.

    Right-wing econmcis have consistently been modeled on social darwinsim
    Nonsense. Plenty of brilliant people do not pursue money. It's modelled on equal opportunity and minimal government intervention. It seeks not the advancement of the few, but of society through economic liberty.

    So, I don't see how that is a cheap shot by any stretch of the imagination.
    You don't see Ubermensch philosophy being equated with mainstream right-wing economics as a shot? Whatever. I bet you don't see the "social Darwinism" as a shot at them either. Perhaps you just spew rhetoric without even a basic understanding of the concepts involved.

    Moreover, it has been shown over and again, and put in the records that right-wing economic policies have led to nothing but ruin.
    Why do you lie about your lean?



    Good day.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 08-20-12 at 02:19 PM.

  9. #209
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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Machiavelli, "The Prince". Anyway, I don't think you have any grasp of her writing except what 'Randoids' and their virulent enemies have told you.
    I have a terrific grasp of her writing and I'm sure she read The Prince as well: very interesting reading.




    Nonsense. Plenty of brilliant people do not pursue money.
    Of course, but that has nothing to do with my point.



    You don't see Ubermensch philosophy being equated with mainstream right-wing economics as a shot? Whatever. I bet you don't see the "social Darwinism" as a shot at them either. Perhaps you just spew rhetoric without even basic understanding of the concepts involved.
    The Ubermensch was front and center in fascist society as well; is that a spirit we want to court?


    Good day.
    As you like
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually that statement is right on the money and supported by facts and data. Just look at the declining election results for the Libertarian Party - the most identifiable randroid base in the nation - for its Presidential candidate ever four years and compare that to America and my description of TEENY TINY NUMBERS is accurate. Less than one-half of one percent is indeed TEENY TINY.

    My description of Rand as pushing a faux ideology is also apt and accurate. It defies any normal tools used in identifying poltical ideologies and is so all over the map that it borders on having a split personality. I distinctly remember in my senior year in college as a poli sci major taking the two classes in Political Philosophy. We had a randroid in our class and he made an attempt to have the writings of Rand included in our discussion. The prof who taught the class laid into him with such fervor and zeal that to say the poor guy was sliced and diced and then crushed and flushed would be an understatement. The prof took the basic elements of any political philosophy and demonstrated how the writings of Rand totally fell far far short of achieving that designation.

    And to identify things properly is always constructive.

    And please remember the context of my remarks were in this thread using a comparison of Hubbards ersatz sci-fi religious mumbo jumbo to that of Rand. While she comes off a bit saner and mundane in that comparison, there still is plenty of disfunction there just the same.
    Please show me some facts and data that Rand is funny (a joke), worse than funny and there would have to be more '10x more randroids' to equal funny. Youre just digging your hole deeper. Had you simply started with your second post instead of rhetoric, we wouldnt be having this pointless debate about debating.

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