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Ayn Rand is the L. Ron Hubbard of Politics

Agree of Disagree ...discuss?

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Cephus said:
Actually, if you go take a look at some Joseph Campbell, he explains very well why these cultures have flood myths, it isn't because there was a single worldwide flood, it's because these cultures live on flood plains where flooding is common. Cultures that do not live on flood plains and did not have contact with cultures that did lack flood myths.

We return to the fact that these stores are myths. They never happened anywhere near the way they were described. As such, why should we believe these books, except where we can find evidence to corroborate their stories? And since we can't corroborate the existence of any gods, why shouldn't we toss that out as unsupported gibberish as well?

Faith doesn't make facts, sorry.
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Again this has nothing to do with anything I said. If you are not going to answer or reply to what I said, why bother?
 
Blackdog said:
This has nothing to do with what I said. You asked for proof, and you got it.
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No, you provided evidence that many cultures observed small floods and created myths around them. You did not provide evidence that the story in the Bible is real or in any way credible.

If you're going to acknowledge that the story is wholly mythical, that's fine. Then why keep the Bible around as a credible source for anything?
 
Cephus said:
Actually, if you go take a look at some Joseph Campbell, he explains very well why these cultures have flood myths, it isn't because there was a single worldwide flood, it's because these cultures live on flood plains where flooding is common.
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:rofl Oh, Cephus, that's rich! Joseph Campbell.

At least you found a way to tie the thread back to the topic: Joseph Campbell is to history what Ayn Rand is to politics.
 
Actually, I should probably explain that. You see, Cephus, the monomyth is discredited. These ingenious categorization schemes are great fun but they just bad history. Myths and cultures don't necessary fit into neat little species, as much as we might like them to.

So when Campbell was trying to prove his monomyth hypothesis, he twisted things. He wanted to see that disparate cultures would come up with myths that looked the same inevitably. But that just isn't how it works. There isn't some seed in the human mind that will make a society unfold with the same archetypes. You want to talk about quasi-religious fantasy theories, that is what these are, because they are utterly unscientific and nonexplanatory, and they do real harm because they contort history to fit the theory. A historian should be striving to overcome prejudice to get to the truth not cultivating confirmation bias with a pet theory like the monomyth.

The fact is the mediterranean flood myths are too similar and occur in too close a span of time to have arisen independently. Most likely, they all stem from the same flood, which some Middle Eastern dude and his family road out in a huge, fully-loaded boat.

So spare us the Hitchens-esque talking points, Cephus.
 
Blackdog said:
That would depend on who you talk to now wouldn't it? Considering it is not one book, but an assembly of many books from many different people I would say you are reaching. Again with more blanket statements.
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Ah, playing semantics. Want me to find an error in each book of the bible?

The Bible is the word of God as interpreted by man. The Bible also points out, we are not robots. So no, your 2 choices are limited and based in speculation and your own biased opinion.

I am not certain why I even bother to respond to this silliness anymore.
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Ah, yes, run away before your ignorance is shown.
 
My take is that the best historical value that the bible has is that it offers insight into the political and philosophical mentality of the people from that culture during the time that they lived. All religious texts offer that value.

The flood myths? They don't have to be accurate historically to have historical value. The creation myth offers insight into how people viewed the world and man's place in it. The stories of Jesus offer tremendous insight into the political climate of Jerusalem back in the 1st century. And it's especially interesting when you take a look at the similarities to the modern US. The differences are also interesting, but the similarities are downright fascinating.

Ironically, you'd think that atheists of all people could find some common ground with Jesus due to his conflicts with the Pharisees.
 
Guy Incognito said:
I sure do. Please include the deuterocanon.
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Fine. And I'll count ALL of them just so you don't even get prissy and try to pretend I didn't post them all - there should in total of 46 books used by roman catholic church. If you want the other 5 used by the orthodox, that's your problem:

Genesis' (2):

Bible Errors in Genesis - Errors & Mistakes in Genesis, First Book of the Bible

Errors in Exodus(1):

Atheist Divine: Biblical Errors | EXODUS

Errors in Leviticus, Ezekiel, Romans, Judges, Isiah, Kings (2 books), Corinthians, Judges, (11):

Atheist Divine: Biblical Errors | Deuteronomy, Joshua & Judges

Errors in Numbers (1):

Bible errata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia see: Lion's Bible

Marc, Luke, John, Matthew and Acts (5):

1001 Errors In The Christian Bible 2012®

Ephesians (1):

AgainstDispensationalism.com: The Ephesians Road Out of Dispensationalism (Part 5)

Errors in Ezra and Nemeniah (2):

Ezra 2 vs. Nehemiah 7

Errors in Chronicles (2):

Bible Contradictions. Kings and the ‘historical' Chronicles. Copyist error? Infallible inerrancy? Sola scriptura?

Errors in Tobit, Judith, Baruch & Jeremiah (4):

Errors in the Apocrypha | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Errors in Maccabees (2):

2 Maccabees Apocrypha Non-canonical Book | FALSE Scripture

Errors in Psalms, Samuels(2) - (3):

Bible Babble - Contradictions in the Holy Bible

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That's 34 books and I'm tired so I'll get the other 12 tomorrow. You REALLY want me to make you look silly and go after the other 12? Please say you do. :)
 
Cephus said:
No, you provided evidence that many cultures observed small floods and created myths around them. You did not provide evidence that the story in the Bible is real or in any way credible.
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Science has shown a major flood happened in the area. WTF? Why be willfully ignorant?

Cephus said:
If you're going to acknowledge that the story is wholly mythical, that's fine. Then why keep the Bible around as a credible source for anything?
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Who said anything about mythical? I said figurative.

You know what, why even bother.

Have a good one man.
 
Hatuey said:
Ah, playing semantics. Want me to find an error in each book of the bible?
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Reaching? What part of blanket statement do I need to explain to make it clear?

Hatuey said:
Ah, yes, run away before your ignorance is shown.
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My ignorance? LMAO!

OK have a good one.
 
Blackdog said:
Science has shown a major flood happened in the area. WTF? Why be willfully ignorant?
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Science has major floods happened in different regions at DIFFERENT TIMES in FLOOD PLAINS. Do you know what a flood plain is?

More importantly, do you not understand the difference between a GLOBAL flood and a LOCAL flood? Here, I'll give you a clue: If I live in Louisiana, Texas and Florida and a hurricane comes, we're all going to have the similar/same narrations of a violent storm. People living at the same altitude in Africa who didn't have the flood will not have stories of it. Why? Because it was not a GLOBAL storm. It was a LOCAL one.
 
Hatuey said:
Fine. And I'll count ALL of them just so you don't even get prissy and try to pretend I didn't post them all - there should in total of 46 books used by roman catholic church. If you want the other 5 used by the orthodox, that's your problem:

Genesis' (2):

Bible Errors in Genesis - Errors & Mistakes in Genesis, First Book of the Bible

Errors in Exodus(1):

Atheist Divine: Biblical Errors | EXODUS

Errors in Leviticus, Ezekiel, Romans, Judges, Isiah, Kings (2 books), Corinthians, Judges, (11):

Atheist Divine: Biblical Errors | Deuteronomy, Joshua & Judges

Errors in Numbers (1):

Bible errata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia see: Lion's Bible

Marc, Luke, John, Matthew and Acts (5):

1001 Errors In The Christian Bible 2012®

Ephesians (1):

AgainstDispensationalism.com: The Ephesians Road Out of Dispensationalism (Part 5)

Errors in Ezra and Nemeniah (2):

Ezra 2 vs. Nehemiah 7

Errors in Chronicles (2):

Bible Contradictions. Kings and the ‘historical' Chronicles. Copyist error? Infallible inerrancy? Sola scriptura?

Errors in Tobit, Judith, Baruch & Jeremiah (4):

Errors in the Apocrypha | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Errors in Maccabees (2):

2 Maccabees Apocrypha Non-canonical Book | FALSE Scripture

Errors in Psalms, Samuels(2) - (3):

Bible Babble - Contradictions in the Holy Bible

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That's 34 books and I'm tired so I'll get the other 12 tomorrow. You REALLY want me to make you look silly and go after the other 12? Please say you do. :)
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I am an agnostic. I find ironic and strange that an atheist would bother to care what a religous man says or thinks about religion.:roll: Its free country people can be as delusional as they like.
 
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Blackdog said:
Reaching? What part of blanket statement do I need to explain to make it clear?



My ignorance? LMAO!

OK have a good one.
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Never took you to be the run and hide type. :) Enjoy.
 
PirateMk1 said:
I am an agnostic. I find ironic and strange that an atheist would bother to care what a religous man says or thinks about religion.:roll:
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Meh - if he comes on the internet and tries to present his bull**** as real - welcome to the internet - people will call you out on it. Now go off and annoy somebody else. :)
 
Hatuey said:
That's 34 books and I'm tired so I'll get the other 12 tomorrow. You REALLY want me to make you look silly and go after the other 12? Please say you do. :)
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HEHEHEHEHE! Most of that and I mean 90% has nothing to do with anything being real or historically accurate. They try and say different authors writing from different perspectives or figurative speech is somehow exact? Like they new what we know today. That was from just the first 3 links.

Why don't you actually learn something about it and the history rather than trust people who want to do nothing but grasp at anything to make a really uniformed comment.

Then again I will consider the sources, most are pretty biased and outright wrong. I am not going to try and explain why because it would just again be a waist of time.
 
Blackdog said:
HEHEHEHEHE! Most of that and I mean 90% has nothing to do with anything being real or historically accurate. They try and say different authors writing from different perspectives or figurative speech is somehow exact? Like they new what we know today. That was from just the first 3 links.

Why don't you actually learn something about it and the history rather than trust people who want to do nothing but grasp at anything to make a really uniformed comment.

Then again I will consider the sources, most are pretty biased and outright wrong. I am not going to try and explain why because it would just again be a waist of time.
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Lol, is that your reply to evidence presented to you? Deny, deny, deny? Well - you are a protestant. You wouldn't see the errors if they smacked you in the face with a bible.
 
Hatuey said:
Meh - if he comes on the internet and tries to present his bull**** as real - welcome to the internet - people will call you out on it. Now go off and annoy somebody else. :)
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Obsesive complusive are we? You do know that is a mental disorder right? In the grand sceme of things does it really matter what they think.;)
 
Hatuey said:
Never took you to be the run and hide type. :) Enjoy.
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Banging my head against a wall of ignorance is really a waist of time. No matter what I type you will not accept it no matter how much more I know about this than you. Not like I was able to study the history and actually read parts in Hebrew, Greek and some Aramaic. But what the hell do I know when up against you supra geniuses.
 
Hatuey said:
Lol, is that your reply to evidence presented to you? Deny, deny, deny? Well - you are a protestant. You wouldn't see the errors if they smacked you in the face with a bible.
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Evidence? Biased sources that obviously nit pick what they want out of context with no historical knowledge of the times or people? Yea you are correct.
 
Hatuey said:
Lol, is that your reply to evidence presented to you? Deny, deny, deny? Well - you are a protestant. You wouldn't see the errors if they smacked you in the face with a bible.
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I have already posted the facts as they are and were. I am also not a protestant or any other denomination. Nice wrong assumption.
 
Blackdog said:
Science has shown a major flood happened in the area. WTF? Why be willfully ignorant?
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Because what is described in the Bible is not a major flood, it is a world-wide flood. It describes all the mountains being covered, which cannot have happened unless the entire planet was underwater.

So do try again.
 
Hatuey said:
Bull****. Youve made a claim and NEVER backed it up. So now put up Matt. Show us the statistics of murder and rape BEFORE and AFTER Christianity. I dare you to source your claim.
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Right, you want statistics from over 2,000 years ago.

government.gif


So should I use the US Census Bureau, or Gallup Polls?
 
Matt Foley said:
Right, you want statistics from over 2,000 years ago.


So should I use the US Census Bureau, or Gallup Polls?
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That's actually the point. You claimed they were "common," so what were you basing that on? We can't establish that they were uncommon just as you can't establish that they were common, but we can at least determine the second part of your claim, i.e. that they were legal. We've shown through at least three sources right off the tops of our heads (Ur-Nammu, Hammurabi and the Old Testament) that rape, theft and murder were indeed illegal prior to the establishment of Christianity. As to the notion that these crimes became uncommon post-founding of Christianity, you've presented nothing to support this except wishful thinking, and in fact we can very much establish that lawlessness in the form of the Dark Ages (post rise of Christianity) prevailed (and this is even ignoring the atrocities of the Crusades, the various wars between the Christian nations, and the brutal treatment of non Christian cultures in India, Africa and the Americas).

Out of curiosity, were you home schooled? In my experience on debate forums every time anyone has made the sort of claims you've made they've always turned out to be home schooled.
 
Cephus said:
Because what is described in the Bible is not a major flood, it is a world-wide flood. It describes all the mountains being covered, which cannot have happened unless the entire planet was underwater.

So do try again.
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It's true, Blackdog. Even taking into account possible scientific theories, such as meteor strikes that would cause massive tsunamies, or permanent flooding caused by melting glaciers from the end of the last ice ages, the flooding still affects coastal areas and not high terrains. Unless there are flood myths from cultures in high altitudes you know of that I don't?
 
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