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Thread: True American Empire Scenario

  1. #51
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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Then you aren't familiar at all. The Constitution stands for an ideal. The oath taken by all military personnel is to support this ideal. When military personnel salute and stand at attention it is not just because they are programmed robots. It's to pay respect to that ideal. When military personnel get out after only 1 contract and then get license plates with their service branch emblem on it, it is to show their pride. This pride isn't just because they wore the game jersey of their High School. It's to show that they did their part for the American ideal.
    OK.

    "Defending America" has been very distinct in our history. In the immediate, it is easy to see retaliation after 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. It is easy to see the War of 1812 and the American Revolution. But what about the wealth of other assignments? What about the Barbary Pirates Wars? The Spanish-American War? World War I? World War II in Europe? Iraq? And all the other in betweens? Our military has stood to preserve our nations ability to meet the boast of our idealistic Constitution. We have preserved our ability to conduct trades and to build. We have encouraged democracy around the globe because it makes it easier to be a democracy. There have been over 120 democracies created since 1900. Our way of life defies history's prescription on how to organize people and how to rule them. Our survival and ability to grow depended on foriegn entanglements that would see entire regions preserve the historical tyrannical trend. Why else do you think we care about democracy in the Middle East.....the last region on earth that defies the future?

    Our military is very much about ideology and everything that goes in to preserving it. Don't confuse the idiot soldier for the institution.
    This is exactly what I worry about. It's possible that if a corporation demanded strict multiculturalism in support of consumerist free trade, the military would stand by instead of protecting the victims of affirmative action.

    What will happen when there are no more entanglements in need of democracy? Furthermore, why are current democracies obligated to provide for the liberation of others? It's like forcing people to play "superman" for the unappreciative.

    This is the path our nation took circa Vietnam, when it decided that our history of military work abroad has and will always be about more than immediate retaliation. It's worse now because the Leftist dogs of that era are today's teacher, lawyers, judges, and politicians. People want to preach about purity and utopia and sacrifice anything to get it while forgetting that the 20th century proved that Leftists can't do it without slaughtering hundreds of millions of people in the process. American Lefitists who have nothing else to bitch about (gay rights is a pathetic attempt to re-create their fight against the man) pretend that they can somehow borrow the prescriptions of Mao and Stalin without the stigma and blood soaked earth it produced. The idea that democracy in another region doesn't matter to America's security has been indoctrinated by univeristy professors and parents who preach that it is silly to be proud of your country; even disgraceful. People who have never served and has never seen what it takes to make sure that Wal-Mart shelf is stocked or those Chinese goods make it past piracy and war torn regions, pretend that its all by magic and we have no business anywhere unless we get punched in the face first (9/11 and Pearl Harbor).
    I agree. The problem is America is addicted to consumerism which requires free trade instead of respecting free markets at home. A corporation could provoke this addiction by demanding that Americans change their way of life.

    These consumerists don't respect domestic producers, yet insist on pitying foreign producers.

    The military is not obsessed with it. The Defense Industry is. The military knows that the four man Fire Team wins wars. The Defense Industry simply wants to keep making toys we don't need or use to feed their bank accounts. And when politicians are put to the task of weeding this problem out they simply protect the thousands of jobs the Defense Industry provides in their individual states. Thus the circle goes round and round. Ever wonder why the F/A-22 Program conitnued to get billions ans billions of dollars even as our troops went to Afghanistan and Iraq with duct tape on their NBC suits and no body armor? It's because when politicians "cut defense" they are literally cutting the defense...not the corporations they protect. There's no money or jobs in creating body armor when compared to flying toys that has't been used since 9/11.
    How do you think we can change the defense industry from caring about technology to caring about morale?

    To be clear, I was talking about the morale behind taxpayer Dollars before, but your point about jobs is another good point.

  2. #52
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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Loyalty to one's ideals is 'nothing of substance'?

    I take it then you either have no ideals or your loyalty to them is fleeting.

    My loyalty to mine are (hopefuly) absolute.



    Have a nice day.



    Absolute nothing....as I see it....but carry on lad in your swirling world of disloyalty and disdain for everything...I like mine much better

  3. #53
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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I have lived in Canada - off and on - since I was 25.
    Isn't that the same country? Go south of the border or move across an ocean and see how far the laws and cultures of others deny you your abilities. It's hard to be proud of something when you take it for granted. You are only you because your nation allows it. This is history and this is fact. Not too many Henry Fords, Steve Jobs, or Alexander Bells coming out of Africa is there?

    Your ideals are exactly like the American ideology. Pretending its not is the current trend just to demonize America's position of imperfection accoring to the world's wishes. Free enterprise was granted to you by this government. Find it in China. Creativity and vision was granted to you by this government. Find it anywhere in the Middle East. My wife has had three different career changes in 6 years (wine associate, accountant with Bachelors and CPA, farming) simply because she has ideas. Such a shift in career choices is viewed as failure in Europe and is frowned upon. The inability to create or to seek greater achievement is denied in dictator/socialistic nations. But somehow your ideology is not of your country's?!

    I don't think you've thought past the prescription forced upon you by the outside world who needs America to swim in the gutter with them.

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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Absolute nothing....as I see it....but carry on lad in your swirling world of disloyalty and disdain for everything...I like mine much better
    Is there any amount of atrocities that the state could do that would cause you to lose your loyalty for it's authority?

  5. #55
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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Isn't that the same country? Go south of the border or move across an ocean and see how far the laws and cultures of others deny you your abilities. It's hard to be proud of something when you take it for granted. You are only you because your nation allows it. This is history and this is fact. Not too many Henry Fords, Steve Jobs, or Alexander Bells coming out of Africa is there?

    Your ideals are exactly like the American ideology. Pretending its not is the current trend just to demonize America's position of imperfection accoring to the world's wishes. Free enterprise was granted to you by this government. Find it in China. Creativity and vision was granted to you by this government. Find it anywhere in the Middle East. My wife has had three different career changes in 6 years (wine associate, accountant with Bachelors and CPA, farming) simply because she has ideas. Such a shift in career choices is viewed as failure in Europe and is frowned upon. The inability to create or to seek greater achievement is denied in dictator/socialistic nations. But somehow your ideology is not of your country's?!

    I don't think you've thought past the prescription forced upon you by the outside world who needs America to swim in the gutter with them.
    Lol.

    My ideals are nothing to do with a country.

    They are to do with my humanity.

    Countries/empires rise and fall (like America).

    Humanity endures.


    My loyalty is to humanity - not any country.



    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by DA60; 08-12-12 at 03:44 PM.

  6. #56
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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Some background would be nice. What kind of standards?

    And I'm not sure what you're talking about when you don't like multiculturalism. Cultures can't exist together? Doesn't that deny the right of people to choose where they exist?

    I'd probably support neither (which should be an option unless the martial law turns America into a dystopia) since the government is fighting to protect its own power, and the corporation is fighting to protect its own profit. I might support the military if it strictly adheres to ideals of freedom.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  7. #57
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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    This is exactly what I worry about. It's possible that if a corporation demanded strict multiculturalism in support of consumerist free trade, the military would stand by instead of protecting the victims of affirmative action.
    Of course it would stand by. It is not the business of our military to interefere with civilian life. Everything inside our borders is what citizens made. Corporations have power because American citizens surrender power to greedy politicians the second they leave the voting booth. The American refusal to pay taxes is why we have whole cities filing for bankruptcy and Amercians bitching about the lack of firemen to put forest fires out.

    But I think you are going too far with the multiculturalism. That's exactly what the American society is. Always has been. Affirmative Action began with government (namely Kennedy). Corporations didn't create todays world. The voter did. How many Republicans bitch about paying taxes then bitch that corporations are screwing America as it gets richer by avoiding its share of taxes? How many bitch about our debt, but refuse to pay the taxes needed to fix it? How many Democrats surrender everthing they believe in as soon as their guy enters the White House and does the same stupid crap the guy they hated did?

    Our entire system is a joke anymore. Looking to the military to fix it or to defend the average citizen against himself is pointless. Corporations are a product of our Constitution. Free Enterprise is a mainstay. One of the things that sets our cultur aside form the rest is how easy it is for us to invent and commericialize our ideas effectively into the global market. But this tends to create corporations, right? Corporations is the price of doing business and exploiting our freedoms. The ones who should really be angry are the military careerists who spent a life defending an ideal only to turn around and see the mess between North Carolina and California. My disdain is less towards the machines of government and corporation and more towards the average citizen who doesn't even understand his own culture as he tears at everything that has made us the most powerful nation in history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    What will happen when there are no more entanglements in need of democracy? Furthermore, why are current democracies obligated to provide for the liberation of others? It's like forcing people to play "superman" for the unappreciative.
    Democracy will always be needed if society and civilization wishes to grow beyond the ideas of single individuals. Unfortunately, because we don't have a single decider beauracracy often obstructs progress. That's the price. But it beats getting your family imprisoned and oppressed into compliance.

    I get it, but there is reason. It's the same reason blacks and whites find each other in the same room. It's the same reason nations like North Korea, Iran, Syria, Russia, and Venezuela hang together on international issues. It is the same reason Christians and Muslims spread in history (aside from religous prescription). *There is strength in numbers.

    Our freedom and democracy is for us alone. We did it for ourselves and we aren't obligated to spread our way of life to anybody. Our preaching and rhetoric doesn't mean that we hold responsibility to create it for others. The world's population likes to call us hypocrits, but **** 'em. We exist for us. However, there are truths to be acknowledged....

    1) America's security has always relied upon the health of foriegn regions (I can exhaust you with the details). This is why we have frequently had to venture beyond our shores even during our isolationalist phase to create or preserve "stability" that was in our favor. During the Cold War we engaged in the dictator for hire game of European and Soviet design because it was easier. But since we stand on the side of freedom and democracy, the entire West has been an example of what to do to others on how to create progress.

    2) However, until Iraq 2003 we have mostly merely preached on the merits of freedom and democracy. Sure we aided in funds here and there and supported those who walked the path on their own to guarantee their preservation, but we finally came to a conclusion during the 90s. Bill Clinton, the Pentagon, and intelligent cultural analysts everywhere figured out that the end of the Cold War also produced an instability that dictators could no longer provide. After asking and demanding for freedom for centuries, these type societies imploded. Yugoslavia cracked into tribes. Iraq's tribes "behaved" as long as their brutal dictator remained in power. Other dictators were clinging to brutal tactics to keep their rebelling tribes in line. When the Arab Spring kicked off it proved that even the people of the Middle East can see the writing on the wall, which was that the future belongs to democracies. This doesn't mean that we care about Iraqis, Libyans, Afghans, etc. But what it does mean is that since our security depends on the health of foriegn regions... and that democracy is the theme now....it is time we practice what we preach to the outside.

    But the ultimate problem for citizens Europe is that they are too selfish to see what it takes to preserve their pampered asses. And the ultimate problem for citizens in America is that since they don't understand their own history they cling to defintiions according to our haters around the globe and demand that efforts only occur after we've been attacked on our soil. Also they attempt to apply to much morality into international affairs to a world where morality is BS. They don't seem to get that Somali pirates hijacking a ship full of Chinese goods will affect their Wal-Mart shelves. Or their gas price when dictators decide to turn off the valve. Stable regions is the key. During the Cold War it was the dictator. Today it is democracy. And isn't this the environment we have been basically guiding and leading the world to anyway?


    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    I agree. The problem is America is addicted to consumerism which requires free trade instead of respecting free markets at home. A corporation could provoke this addiction by demanding that Americans change their way of life.

    These consumerists don't respect domestic producers, yet insist on pitying foreign producers.
    Consumerists want their "MTV." They don't care where it comes from when they look for the best price. That's capitalism and that's enterprise. Corporations and industry will always go to cheap labor. It used to be the Transatlantic Slave Trade. Then it was India. South America. Now China. The future is Africa. Don't be surprised one day when China's rising economy hits the cultural brick wall and your goods start saying "Made in Africa."

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    How do you think we can change the defense industry from caring about technology to caring about morale?

    To be clear, I was talking about the morale behind taxpayer Dollars before, but your point about jobs is another good point.
    We can't. Morality is a luxury. Proven time and again. When sales are up, morality can matter. When you are able to provide for your family, morality matters. When you are the richest nation in history and the most powerful in history, morality matters. But how much does morality matter to the thief stealing bread and milk for his family? Or that third world nation that somehow must provide for millions of starving people? Morality is a luxury. But it has nothing to do with the Dollar. That's all business. Do you know why ethics is a class for business majors and lawyers? Because it isn't natural to what they do to succeed. It must be forced.

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  8. #58
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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post


    My loyalty is to humanity - not any country.

    And what is humanity but a tendency to murder and destroy? History is clear on humanity. Our natural state is violence. We fool ourselves into thinking that we are peace loving people. We are not. We get bored. We see advantage and we strike in all walks of life whether we talk of dictators or corporations. Our businesses cut out competition and look forward to seeing thousands laid off. Our sports are violent. We have gone from the gladiator to the rugby brute and the boxer or pro wrestler. And when we can't get everyone to war, we provide video games so our children can prepare themselves for the excitement of murder and destruction. We look forward to the violence of the summer blockbuster. Our television shows are getting more and more violent (watch anything on HBO, AMC, Stars, FX, etc.)

    You've been in this world long enough to know this. Perhaps it is time to place such Gandhi type rhetoric where it belongs. You want to change the world or humanity? First start with accepting what it is. Morality and values are luxuries of the convenient. Humanity will dissapoint you every time. A lot of people between Berlin and Cambodia can tell you wonderful stories of humanity. Be thankful (or prideful) that you live in a country that wouldn't stand for such displays of humanity at home.

    Placing your loyalty to the American ideal might be better since it was the American ideal that provided you every opportunity in life to succeed....fail...succeed...fail....succeed...etc.
    Last edited by MSgt; 08-12-12 at 10:32 PM.

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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    I might support the military if it strictly adheres to ideals of freedom.
    It would make for a good movie. How far would the Pentagon's loyalty go with a government that shredded the Constitution? The Oath prepares us to "Support and Defend the Constitution," not a government. We are tasked to keep our government in line, but at what point do we become traitors of patriots? By the way, our Generals/Admirals are also tasked to keep our politicians informed, but they fail miserably at that.

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    Re: True American Empire Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    Imagine 25 years from now that an American corporation controls a monopoly of foreign supply chains for a vital American consumer good.

    This corporation then issues the American government the following message:

    "Either you change your way of living to fit our standards, or we will embargo you."


    For sake of argument, let's assume enough adaptation time is given, but it's not long enough for military preemption.

    America refuses to adapt, and decides on military retaliation instead. The corporation threatens to implode 100% of its facilities if any retaliation is organized. If the supply chain implodes, it will devastate America so badly that it will have to resort to martial law in order to prevent anarchy.

    Would you support the corporation or the military?
    You know what the funny thing about corporate headquarters is?


    They are usually much less hardened than the kind of C4I bunkers that the military is used to blowing up.



    Try to take our sovereignty, and we will.

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