Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

cpwill said:

Paul Ryan has won seven elections in a Democrat district. The last time the people of Paul Ryan's district voted for a Republican for President was 1984.

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You misspelled "Democratic."

my thoughts on the VP pick from the other thread :

Helix said:

just got back from two days in the wilderness with no 3g, so i am just now hearing about this pick.

my analysis (caveat : i'm not a Romney supporter, so that may affect perfect objectivity)

pros :

Ryan is extremely well spoken, and can debate quite well.
it's early to say, but if he could flip Wisconsin, that's ten electoral votes that went Obama last time.
conservatives love him, and he'll certainly cause some voters who would have otherwise stayed home to show up and pull the lever for Romney.
his tax plan is a big plus for a small percentage of people who have vast amounts of wealth. it's likely this pick will bring in an incredible amount of money from donors who may have previously written this election off as lost due to Romney's lack of affability and complete disconnect with the average voter.

cons :

Ryan's budget. i'd wager that many retirees (even some conservative retirees) aren't willing to trade the medicare benefits that they've paid for their whole lives for a lousy private voucher system. even if this is unlikely to actually happen, this election is now about privatizing medicare and part of social security.
Ryan's tax plan is a liability with voters who have seen tax cuts for the top percentages fail to deliver over and over again.
again, while it's early to make this prediction, this pick may cost Romney Florida. that's 29 electoral votes down the drain, unless the pick really does bring in enough money to saturate Florida's airwaves 24/7 between now and the election with anti-Obama rhetoric.

summary :

it was either Ryan or Rubio. Rubio might have brought Florida with him, which would have been priceless. additionally, Rubio's Hispanic heritage would have an asset to Romney in bringing out a bit more of the Latino vote which will likely go Obama. Ryan brings money from donors and rock solid conservative credentials. the other names being floated were non-starters who would have brought very little to the campaign. between Ryan and Rubio, it's my opinion that Rubio would have been the better pick.

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haymarket said:

Since we have been through this literally hundreds of times in thread after thread after thread, read it for yourself in this article which explains both for you

Estate tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



and the death tax



Every word above has been reproduced scores of times for you.

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Uh given that WIKI can be edited by anyone and I am sure people like you have tried to make their beloved looting of the wealthy's property sound as benevolent as possible I reject your "authority" as being without credible citations. Citing a professor from Berkeley who was a protégée of Noam Chomsky is hardly convincing.

and a linguist is hardly authority on tax issues-his association with a far left think tank further suggests that his comments are based on an agenda

sorry your citations are rejected as being laughable and biased

even the IRS has used the term DEATH TAXES to describe Ohio and other state's estate taxes which are applied in a manner almost identical to the Federal death tax

radcen said:

"Estate Tax" is the proper official name.

"Death Tax", while not wholly incorrect, is a manufactured interpretation purposely intended to paint the tax in a negative light.

Not that any tax is positive, but still...

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the people who imposed this tax are obviously going to give it the most palatable name they could find

its like Clinton calling his idiotic gun ban "The safe streets act" rather than the "hysterical and ignorant ban on scary looking firearms" law

TurtleDude said:

the people who imposed this tax are obviously going to give it the most palatable name they could find

its like Clinton calling his idiotic gun ban "The safe streets act" rather than the "hysterical and ignorant ban on scary looking firearms" law

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Could you present the corresponding information as to how the Roman Emperor Augustus named his tax on estates 2,000 years ago?

TurtleDude said:

Uh given that WIKI can be edited by anyone and I am sure people like you have tried to make their beloved looting of the wealthy's property sound as benevolent as possible I reject your "authority" as being without credible citations. Citing a professor from Berkeley who was a protégée of Noam Chomsky is hardly convincing.

and a linguist is hardly authority on tax issues-his association with a far left think tank further suggests that his comments are based on an agenda

sorry your citations are rejected as being laughable and biased

even the IRS has used the term DEATH TAXES to describe Ohio and other state's estate taxes which are applied in a manner almost identical to the Federal death tax

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Actually you need to learn quite a bit about the wikipedia editing process. If its that easy perhaps you should do it and report back here to us?

Who would know better about words than a professional linguist? You really do not like experts who make you look stupid do you?

I could not care less what some lower level clerk from the IRS decides to do. As you have been told a hundred times, every pastry chef in the land, every cook book in the land and every food expert in the land who talks about two tiers of yellow batter with custard in between covered by chocolate as a BOSTON CREAM PIE. All the experts agree that it is a BOSTON CREAM PIE.

and its a cake no matter what words come out of the chef or food experts mouth.

You already admitted there is no tax on death.

Its settled and finished.

haymarket said:

Actually you need to learn quite a bit about the wikipedia editing process. If its that easy perhaps you should do it and report back here to us?

Who would know better about words than a professional linguist? You really do not like experts who make you look stupid do you?

I could not care less what some lower level clerk from the IRS decides to do. As you have been told a hundred times, every pastry chef in the land, every cook book in the land and every food expert in the land who talks about two tiers of yellow batter with custard in between covered by chocolate as a BOSTON CREAM PIE. All the experts agree that it is a BOSTON CREAM PIE.

and its a cake no matter what words come out of the chef or food experts mouth.

You already admitted there is no tax on death.

Its settled and finished.

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a far left linguist=Sorry. Next you will quote Obama for knowing best about the GOP agenda.

Death tax is an accepted description of the wealth stealing social engineering scheme you love so much

LiberalAvenger said:

"scared them straight" You T's are living an illusion. I have not heard them in the news for a year . [rip] Look at your avatar with the gun playing badass.Is that all you got lol.

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Yeah, they've done nothing. Meanwhile, another Tea Partier won a Republican primary over an establishment guy in Texas for one of their Senate seats. Just happened last week. Maybe you should stop watching MSNBC and you would hear about stuff like that bro.
BTW, bet my avatar would beat yours. Yours still has his guns in the holster. Mine is at the ready.:gunner:

From reading conservative responses, I don't see how Ryan is going to help Romney in some of their views. Some of them, like Jamesrage, are still unhappy with Romney despite picking Ryan. For some Conservatives, I don't think Romney can win them over.

It doesn't look like Ryan can bring the same excitement as Palin.

SheWolf said:

From reading conservative responses, I don't see how Ryan is going to help Romney in some of their views. Some of them, like Jamesrage, are still unhappy with Romney despite picking Ryan. For some Conservatives, I don't think Romney can win them over.

It doesn't look like Ryan can bring the same excitement as Palin.

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The VP candidate shouldn't outshine the Presidential candidate.

MarineTpartier said:

Yeah, they've done nothing. Meanwhile, another Tea Partier won a Republican primary over an establishment guy in Texas for one of their Senate seats. Just happened last week. Maybe you should stop watching MSNBC and you would hear about stuff like that bro.
BTW, bet my avatar would beat yours. Yours still has his guns in the holster. Mine is at the ready.:gunner:

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Yeah, Texas,, what a big deal that is. The area he won is probably full of First Baptists.:bunny:eace

Thorgasm said:

The VP candidate shouldn't outshine the Presidential candidate.

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In a Media Whore Culture, that makes sense. Our graven image, the Personality-in-Chief must outshine all.

Romney is a manager. He spots talent and puts it to work. I am sure he is delighted that Ryan is quicker on his feet than he is. Helps his campaign.

SheWolf said:

From reading conservative responses, I don't see how Ryan is going to help Romney in some of their views. Some of them, like Jamesrage, are still unhappy with Romney despite picking Ryan. For some Conservatives, I don't think Romney can win them over.

It doesn't look like Ryan can bring the same excitement as Palin.

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You may want to take a look at the campaign coverage.

I don't think tihs is "Palin all over again" but the nagain, I view the Palin pick far differently than many liberals on this board.

Palin was an excellent political pick botched by horrendous political strategy and campaigning. John McCain had 8+ years of reputation as being a moderate, as being a Republican that could attract independents and work with Democrats, of being someone that could easily reach to the middle. He had issues with his base and did not exactly come off as genuine when he did the required lurch to center the primary season calls for. In Palin he helped shore up his base and gave himself the opening to run towards the center and at least ATTEMPT to get some of the independents and moderates away from the Obama ticket. It also politcally gave him a counter to the notion of it being a "historic" election and in terms of the Charisma gap on the tickets. Her biggest weakness on paper, the small amount of experience, should've been something that would've been politically damaging to go after given Obama's sizably low amount of experience for the position of Chief Executive as well. The problem with Palin however was the execution was just attrocious. The McCain camp either didn't inform her of the selection significantly in advance to allow her to bone up on National issues OR they simply made the decision at the last possible moment. To compensate they immedietely stashed her away after the initial announcement. However the biggest blunder was the most obvious...McCain picked someone that would galvanize and excite the base, but rather than taking advantage of that and allowing himself to act natural and go back towards the middle, he attempte to continue to play at being "joe conservative" and to put Palin front and Center. Palin would've been the perfect pick to go around on a bus tour, whipping up the Republican Base and getting them excited while McCain is being the front man at the top of the ticket speaking in Interviews and on TV putting forward a more moderate tone and a message of working together to fix Washington and truly going back to what came most natural to him...being a moderate Republican. The Palin pick was excellent politically....the EXECUTION of it was one of the biggest botches I've seen since studying politics.

The Ryan pick is ridiculously different, in part because the Romney candidacy is ridiculously different. While Mitt Romney was regarded as a "moderate" in Massachusetts and attacked as one throughout his time in the Republican Primary, since he's been on the national scene he's presented himelf as a rock ribbed, stereotypical, Republican through and through. This means that the base, the group most likely to pay attention to the primaries so listened and heard those attacks in 2008, view him perhaps as a "moderate" Republican but many in the general population just see him as "Joe GOP". He does not have the same national chache as a moderate or independent minded person in the same way that John McCain did. As such, the ability to choose a candidate to solidify the base while he works to the middle...as was possible for McCain with Palin...does not exist. While it would help Romney a bit to sure up the base, even that is not as important as 2008. In 2008 people on the right disliked Obama largley because he was the Democratic nominee...but there was no real tangiable thing to point to whip them into the frenzy. Four years later and we have multiple tangable actions and statements and things regarding Obama, on top of him simply being the opponents pick, that has the base whipped into a frenzy that makes it less necessary to placate them. Politically, the Ryan pick is worse than Palin. While it helps in the notoin that it may assist with a swing state and he brings a tangable benefit to the campaign in his ability to be a clear and articulate orator of the conservative message, the benefits he brings to the campaign are no where near the level of Palin where as many of the potential pitfalls....his clear staunchly right position and it's effect with independents, his arguable lack of experience, and his greater charisma and popularity than the top of the ticket individual...remain.

As I've said in another thread, on a personal level I like the Ryan pick. But on a political level, it's at best a break even pick and likely a poor one given the many other potential options. This is in stark contrast to the Palin pick which was a good, if not great, selection politically that suffered due to horrific campaign planning.

(On a side note...the fact that my go to candidate in the Primaries this year borrowed the McCain campaign strategy team should've had me perfectly prepared for the second worst campaign strategy I've seen since watching politics. Huntsman's primary strategy was just mind boggling stupid and it doesn't shock me in the least that it was dreamed up by the same individuals who took a golden goose in the 2008 election and proceeded to throw it in the oven until it was charred black).

TurtleDude said:

and marx and other communists favored heavy death taxes. there is no dispute that those who hate private property and want an all powerful nanny state to gobble up more and more private property support the death tax

those envious of the wealthy all support the death tax as well. there is no dispute about that either

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:lamo And there's the ENVY card!!! :lamo


No, not all people who support estate taxes dislike property or envy someone who can make money. You know my view of estate taxes and it has nothing to do with government making money.

TurtleDude said:

another bit of dishonesty-we call it a death tax because death is the operative action that causes the tax to come into play

you know that and so does the other lover of that tax

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But if it doesn't always come into play upon death - and it doesn't! - then it's a false label. For example, there is no estate tax if the entire estate goes to charity.

Fletch said:

Your property is taxed at death--hence, death tax.

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That's a lie. It's only taxed if someone inherits it.

MarineTpartier said:

I think all of us can agree that this Republican party is not the one that served under Bush. It may even have some of the same people, but my beloved Tea Party has scared them straight. The funny thing is, you point the finger at Republicans under Bush yet the policies they were pushing were simply President Obama-lite policies. Bush bailed people out. Obama bailed more people out. Bush killed terrorists without approval. Obama kills terrorists AND Americans without approval. Bush opened Guantanamo. Obama kept it open AND built them a soccer field. Bush increased the debt. Obama almost doubled it.

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Yeah - scared them so much they are even now looking for a way to back out of their agreement to reduce military spending next year. Yeah, they be affeared of you'all! LOL!

TurtleDude said:

even the IRS has used the term DEATH TAXES to describe Ohio and other state's estate taxes which are applied in a manner almost identical to the Federal death tax

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Which IRS publication is that???

TurtleDude said:

the people who imposed this tax are obviously going to give it the most palatable name they could find

its like Clinton calling his idiotic gun ban "The safe streets act" rather than the "hysterical and ignorant ban on scary looking firearms" law

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Of course.

This is why I have started to be of the opinion that maybe bills and laws shouldn't be allowed to have names at all. Just numbers. Names emotionalize the issue too much.

MoSurveyor said:

That's a lie. It's only taxed if someone inherits it.

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Didn't it used to be called the "inheritance tax"? Seriously, I think it was, but am too lazy to look it up right now.

LiberalAvenger said:

Yeah, Texas,, what a big deal that is. The area he won is probably full of First Baptists.:bunny:eace

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•In Indiana's Senate primary, tea party-backed Richard Mourdock ran a functionally libertarian campaign and won against Sen. Richard Lugar, a fiscal moderate and 36-year incumbent. Mourdock railed against government spending and promised to cut federal agencies, but hasn't talked about gay marriage.
•In a Kentucky congressional primary, tea party candidate Thomas Massie won against Alecia Webb-Edgington. Massie opposed the PATRIOT Act, the drug war, and military adventurism. Webb-Edgington, by contrast, argued, "We don't need any more socialists, communists or libertarians in the Republican Party."
•In Florida's Senate primary, Rep. Connie Mack won the backing of the tea party over fiscal moderate Sen. George LeMieux and big-government social conservative Rep. Dave Weldon. Mack voted twice against the Wall Street bailout in 2008, and his "Penny Plan" to cut spending was incorporated as part of the "Tea Party Budget." Weldon failed to gain momentum among tea partiers, despite hiring Santorum's communications director and winning the support of evangelical leaders.
•In Wisconsin's Senate primary, tea party voters have pushed businessman Eric Hovde to a polling lead over Mark Neumann. Neumann told the New York Times that he would refuse to hire a gay staffer, and in a speech before the Christian Coalition said, "If I was elected God for a day, homosexuality wouldn't be permitted." Hovde has emphasized his strong stand for cutting spending and limiting government.
Ron Paul and the Tea Party Playbook | David Kirby and Emily McClintock Ekins | Cato Institute: Commentary

Some of us see the tax as not on someone dying, but rather someone GAINING, like a gift or the lottery... be thankful it isn't taxed like the lottery :roll:

For sure the receiver of the estate did something to earn the gift, most likely being fortunate enough to be born or adopted into the wealthy family.

Even the lame attempt to call it a 'death tax' doesn't change the fact few, if any people actually PAY the tax. First the tax doesn't kick in until the single person's estate is valued over 5 million dollars. Next given estate planning and gift tax relaxation, only spiteful Uber-riche would fail to dole out enough of their estate to duck below the 5 million dollar threshold.

More whine from the very blessed over a non issue while they are sitting there fat and happy.

Pathetic really...

MoSurveyor said:

Yeah - scared them so much they are even now looking for a way to back out of their agreement to reduce military spending next year. Yeah, they be affeared of you'all! LOL!

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You may want to read up on sequestration before you throw this ridiculous statement out.

radcen said:

Didn't it used to be called the "inheritance tax"? Seriously, I think it was, but am too lazy to look it up right now.

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We can thank Frank Luntz for this and other semantic turds.

Frank Luntz - SourceWatch