View Poll Results: Will Ryan as VP help or hurt Romney win election?

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  • It will help Romney

    51 27.42%
  • It will hurt Romney

    84 45.16%
  • It will have no real effect on the outcome

    38 20.43%
  • Other, please explain

    13 6.99%
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Thread: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

  1. #371
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You are mixing apples and oranges here. The gov't may indeed not offer over generous benefits and pay to teachers and still have them work (or let them leave and be replaced by others). To offer less pay for the same treatment of Medicare patients provides doctors a choice, accept a partially paid for Medicare patient or a fully paid for PPACA patient, remember that their will soon be many millions more of those PPACA patients.
    It is the exact same thing. Here is what you said earlier


    Gov't mandates do not magically make goods and services cost less, no matter what Obama wishes you to believe.
    In both health care and education what we have is government demanding the same level of service but paying less for it. The right seems to think its the cats pajama's when we do it to public employees especially school teachers. But demanding the same of insurance companies and medical service providers seems suddenly to be out of bounds.

    Hypocrisy.
    Last edited by haymarket; 08-18-12 at 12:37 PM.
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  2. #372
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    You do know that means I'm blaming Republicans for the Crash right? Clinton kept spending relatively under control, so that only leaves two candidates for the screw up. Can you guess who?
    The Republicans in and of themselves shouldn't be blamed completely. I agree that with good government oversight the banks probably couldn't have pulled off the more obvious cons but some (most!?) blame has to fall on the banks. And even if you don't buy into the banks theory the other option presented was too much private credit, which still has nothing to do with overzealous government spending. In a nutshell, I don't care which party you're blaming because I'm not as much of a hack as you think I am. From the evidence and reports I've seen, and I've even skimmed through a couple of those 3-digit monster reports, it's either the banks or too much private debt. I favor the former but admit I might be convinced of the latter with more/better information, which I doubt we'll ever see.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Honestly, I like Rand Paul's bill better than Ryans. Ryan doesn't reduce gov't, he just reins in the spending of it. Maybe you should look up how gov't works. Ideally, the House would pass something, the Senate would pass something. They would realize they're obviously way off. The would keep counter proposing until something passed both. I know that sounds like a fallacy that this Congress could agree on anything. However, they should at least do the due dilligence instead of what the Dems did. They just quit.
    See? The PR machine is working just as I said.
    ((And budgets are going to be done piecemeal until further notice.))

    Maybe you should live through a few decades of watching how government works instead of repeating pie-in-the-sky ideals out of a book. Most social theories die right outside the door of the library.

    It takes two sides to negotiate and the Republicans have repeatedly shown they have no interest in doing that. Heaven forbid they might do something that would give the Dems any credit. That would be in direct violation of Job #1, which you have said was acceptable to you. What did you expect would be the real world result of such a policy? One result is exactly what you've been seeing, obstructionism.

    Yeah, all 51 "just quit". What happened to the other 49?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    The House passed a budget and the POTUS presented a budget that sucked but at least he presented it. Who's not participating?
    It wasn't any worse than the House budget --- both were just as unpalatable to the other side.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    RE-READ THE COMMENT I RESPONDED WITH!!! Take your partisan hack hat off man. You are arguing just for the sake of it.
    I don't think both sides did screw it up --- so what part of your comment do you think I didn't address?
    If you meant "We'll have to agree to disagree then you should have said so".
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-18-12 at 01:16 PM.
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  3. #373
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is the exact same thing. Here is what you said earlier




    In both health care and education what we have is government demanding the same level of service but paying less for it. The right seems to think its the cats pajama's when we do it to public employees especially school teachers. But demanding the same of insurance companies and medical service providers seems suddenly to be out of bounds.

    Hypocrisy.
    It is NOT the same thing since seniors now have no right to get any other medical care (and ALL must still pay for Medicare out of their checks), it is Medcare or nothing at all, teachers can certainly seek other employment.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #374
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It is NOT the same thing since seniors now have no right to get any other medical care (and ALL must still pay for Medicare out of their checks), it is Medcare or nothing at all, teachers can certainly seek other employment.
    Spoken like somebody who has never taught or had to "seek other employment" after spending years in the profession.

    It is exactly the same thing in that it is government mandating that the same level of services (or even more) be delivered for less compensation in return. Of course there will be differences when going from one sector to the other. That is normal and unavoidable. But righties love to demand that teachers teach more for less and government employees give more for less but asking insurance companies and providers to do the same is verbotten to the corporate mindset because it is their constituency which loses out.
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  5. #375
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Spoken like somebody who has never taught or had to "seek other employment" after spending years in the profession.

    It is exactly the same thing in that it is government mandating that the same level of services (or even more) be delivered for less compensation in return. Of course there will be differences when going from one sector to the other. That is normal and unavoidable. But righties love to demand that teachers teach more for less and government employees give more for less but asking insurance companies and providers to do the same is verbotten to the corporate mindset because it is their constituency which loses out.
    You are very confused about what Obama is doing here. Obama is taking from those that now pay (or who have paid) into Medicare and giving to those that get will get PPACA subsidies to make PPACA appear not to be as expensive as it actually is. That is far different from changing the pay/benefit level for a particular gov't job. Obama is not saving any tax money, he is spending more tax money, just changing who is getting that money from Medicare patients to PPACA patients.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 08-18-12 at 01:55 PM.
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #376
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The Republicans in and of themselves shouldn't be blamed completely. I agree that with good government oversight the banks probably couldn't have pulled off the more obvious cons but some (most!?) blame has to fall on the banks. And even if you don't buy into the banks theory the other option presented was too much private credit, which still has nothing to do with overzealous government spending. In a nutshell, I don't care which party you're blaming because I'm not as much of a hack as you think I am. From the evidence and reports I've seen, and I've even skimmed through a couple of those 3-digit monster reports, it's either the banks or too much private debt. I favor the former but admit I might be convinced of the latter with more/better information, which I doubt we'll ever see.
    My point is this. President W Bush increased the size and scope of gov't. President Obama did it even more. There's only so much room in the market. When gov't shoulders its way into the market, the result is what we have now. I know that isn't the only reason for the collapse though. It just didn't help.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Maybe you should live through a few decades of watching how government works instead of repeating pie-in-the-sky ideals out of a book. Most social theories die right outside the door of the library.
    You mean the social theories like utopianism, collectivism, and socialism that this President has engaged in? Yeah, you're right. They are dying. And they're taking the country with them. But you have no issue with that. You would probably say that FDR was a good POTUS too wouldn't you? What I said is not a social theory. It's the way gov't works. I understand full budgets aren't passed. The entire point of the Senate proposing their budget, the House submitting one, the POTUS submitting one is the parts of each budget that can be agreed upon and pass muster in both chambers are what we get. When one chamber doens't put anything forth, the system breaks down. The system we see now worked great when Clinton was POTUS. It may have been nasty, but it worked eventually.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It takes two sides to negotiate and the Republicans have repeatedly shown they have no interest in doing that.
    Heaven forbid they might do something that would give the Dems any credit.
    Oh, I see. The Republicans should have just continued their free spending ways and this would all be better. It makes so much sense to me now that you explain it that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That would be in direct violation of Job #1, which you have said was acceptable to you. What did you expect would be the real world result of such a policy? One result is exactly what you've been seeing, obstructionism.
    As I said, and you repeatedly ignore my statements to make me look like the partisan here, if a Congressman has voted no on a bill just to make Dems look stupid, I wouldn't agree with that. They should do what's best for the American people. I have no issue with a Senator or Representative actively campaigning against a POTUS though.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Yeah, all 51 "just quit". What happened to the other 49?
    Did they pass a budget or not? I don't want to hear this "Well, well, those Republicans in the House would have shot it down anyway so, so, that's why we didn't pass anything........No, wait, it was TEA PARTY! Yeah, the Tea Party did it. They came in here yelling and waving Don't Tread on Me flags and it distracted us from passing a budget for over 1,000 days"
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It wasn't any worse than the House budget --- both were just as unpalatable to the other side.
    Both were presented. One passed muster in the House. The POTUS and House did their job.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I don't think both sides did screw it up --- so what part of your comment do you think I didn't address?
    If you meant "We'll have to agree to disagree then you should have said so".
    Nope, I meant that both sides screwed up. This is where you are a partisan hack. You believe the failing of the Super Committee was all one sides fault. That's like saying a divorce is always the mans fault.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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  7. #377
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Why is it that you and others claim that President Obama simply cannot lower costs but keep services via decree or negotiated settlement or law while many of the same Obama critics do exactly that by mandating that public school teachers can indeed give the same service - or even more - at the same time they reduce wages or benefits for them?

    It seems there is a serious contradiction in the thinking process there.
    Well, that's a good question. I would suggest that you are, however, missing a couple of key points.

    1. You are running for an hour? good grief - I'm so glad I don't have to do that any more. CrossFit, baby

    2. Many on the right are not "pushing to lower teacher pay and benefits" as an end in itself - we are looking to make them more flexible to allow localities to survive.

    3. Within that push, you will find that generally we support the same thing in healthcare prices that we support in "teacher" prices - namely, that the price be set by competition rather than government fiat. We believe that such a model will get us the best result for the buck, and that is why we support things like school choice.

    4. In fact, many conservatives wish to pay teachers more in order to pay them competitively, specifically with regards to incentive and performance pay. It is the current compensation packages that are problematic. Conservatives tend to suspect that you get what you pay for, and by instituting compensation packages that are tilted away from items that can be linked to job performance (and aren't anyway) such as salary and towards retirement packages, we suspect that we are attracting candidates who are being rewarded not for performance, but for longevity.

    5. It's worth noting that unions actually feed this suspicion. Our end product that we seek in education is not a "good teacher", but rather a "well educated student body". By loudly and aggressively attacking any notion that teachers can be held responsible for whether or not they have had an impact on producing a "well educated student body", unions teach the rest of us that we do not need to pay for top-teachers, as it seems that they cannot have a discernible difference on our end product.


    Now, I don't believe the union claims in #5 for a second. But the more that teachers shout that they cannot be priced competitively, the more people think "okay, then we don't need to pay them competitively".
    Last edited by cpwill; 08-18-12 at 07:21 PM.

  8. #378
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    My point is this. President W Bush increased the size and scope of gov't. President Obama did it even more. There's only so much room in the market. When gov't shoulders its way into the market, the result is what we have now. I know that isn't the only reason for the collapse though. It just didn't help.
    So ... what have we determined? That the credit rating drop was not the result of over-zealous government spending. It was the result of the government not being able to get it's collective act together to figure out a way to address the debt. There are two other credit rating agencies who haven't down-graded us and they've already said they will be watching what we do up to 2013 when the reductions kick in. At that point they'll re-evaluate. Do you think Republicans whining about the existing plan that they helped create - and some absolutely insisted on! - are easing the concerns of those agencies?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    You mean the social theories like utopianism, collectivism, and socialism that this President has engaged in? Yeah, you're right. They are dying. And they're taking the country with them. But you have no issue with that. You would probably say that FDR was a good POTUS too wouldn't you? What I said is not a social theory. It's the way gov't works. I understand full budgets aren't passed. The entire point of the Senate proposing their budget, the House submitting one, the POTUS submitting one is the parts of each budget that can be agreed upon and pass muster in both chambers are what we get. When one chamber doens't put anything forth, the system breaks down. The system we see now worked great when Clinton was POTUS. It may have been nasty, but it worked eventually.
    You keep claiming you're not a hack but ^^this^^ proves otherwise.

    If it IS the way government works then it would be happening right now. But it isn't working that way, is it? Because what you're describing is a social theory - an ideal. If this was a scientific theory your theory would be shot to hell.

    When all 242 Republicans pass a House budget you let me know. With the Senate being as close as it is, it will remain locked following McConnell's Job #1 policy. Republicans have no reason to cooperate as you're proving with each post. Are you blaming Republicans for the lack of a Senate budget? Not one little bit. Job #1 accomplished!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Oh, I see. The Republicans should have just continued their free spending ways and this would all be better. It makes so much sense to me now that you explain it that way.
    Do you need some help with that reading comprehension skill? Or maybe the vocabulary I used was too high-dollar for you? Either way, I'm sure we can find someone to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    As I said, and you repeatedly ignore my statements to make me look like the partisan here, if a Congressman has voted no on a bill just to make Dems look stupid, I wouldn't agree with that. They should do what's best for the American people. I have no issue with a Senator or Representative actively campaigning against a POTUS though.
    Every Congressman's Job #1 should be running the country, not their political agendas. McConnell seems to have other ideas and publicly stated as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Did they pass a budget or not? I don't want to hear this "Well, well, those Republicans in the House would have shot it down anyway so, so, that's why we didn't pass anything........No, wait, it was TEA PARTY! Yeah, the Tea Party did it. They came in here yelling and waving Don't Tread on Me flags and it distracted us from passing a budget for over 1,000 days"
    When the House manages to get ALL the Republicans on board you let me know. For now, McConnell's Job #1 stands; No Republican Senator is going to vote for a Dem sponsored budget and no Republican Senator will put forth a budget that a Dem would vote for. Job #1 accomplished.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Nope, I meant that both sides screwed up. This is where you are a partisan hack. You believe the failing of the Super Committee was all one sides fault. That's like saying a divorce is always the mans fault.
    Sometimes in a divorce one side IS 100% at fault, unless you think it's the "fault" of a spouse who is unwilling to put up with their partner sleeping around. Infidelity is unacceptable in my book. Are you saying it's OK in your book? Or are you just being a hack?
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-18-12 at 08:09 PM.
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  9. #379
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    So ... what have we determined? That the credit rating drop was not the result of over-zealous government spending. It was the result of the government not being able to get it's collective act together to figure out a way to address the debt. There are two other credit rating agencies who haven't down-graded us and they've already said they will be watching what we do up to 2013 when the reductions kick in. At that point they'll re-evaluate. Do you think Republicans whining about the existing plan that they helped create - and some absolutely insisted on! - are easing the concerns of those agencies?
    So, according to your logic once someone starts down a path, even if its wrong, they must continue down that path? You've never made a decision in your life and decided it was the wrong thing to do and changed your mind? Who's more at fault, the person who makes a mistake, realizes it, and tries to change it or the person who makes a mistake and bullheadedly pushes forward as a matter of pride? I'm just happy someone up there is realizing we can't spend money like we have the past 12 years. It ruined 8 good years of relatively good fiscal responsibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If it IS the way government works then it would be happening right now. But it isn't working that way, is it? Because what you're describing is a social theory - an ideal. If this was a scientific theory your theory would be shot to hell.
    So you contend we are not falling into a socialist-like system? Lets see, we have Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the ACA, a central bank, horribly regulated welfare, federal regulations on everything from how much water your toilet can flush to the wattage of your light bulbs, laws against allowing people to discriminate against people on their own property, etc, etc. I could keep going and going. The sad part is that of Karl Marx's core 10 principles needed for a socialist state, we are checking the box on 7 of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    When all 242 Republicans pass a House budget you let me know. With the Senate being as close as it is, it will remain locked following McConnell's Job #1 policy. Republicans have no reason to cooperate as you're proving with each post. Are you blaming Republicans for the lack of a Senate budget? Not one little bit. Job #1 accomplished!
    Hey! Look! The House has already passed its FY13 bill! Where's the Senate's bill?
    House Passes FY2013 Budget Bill | C-SPAN
    Oh, there it is. Presented by a Dem who didn't allow anyone to vote on it or amend it. Oh, and to our previous debate about how budgets work.
    Quoted from the story:
    Normally, each house of Congress passes its own budget, reconciles the differences, and then sends the final bill to the president for his signature.Three Years Have Passed Since Senate Passed a Budget | CNSNews.com
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Do you need some help with that reading comprehension skill? Or maybe the vocabulary I used was too high-dollar for you? Either way, I'm sure we can find someone to help.
    I can see the armor cracking now. Usually, when someone is wrong, they resort to personal attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Every Congressman's Job #1 should be running the country, not their political agendas. McConnell seems to have other ideas and publicly stated as much.
    How many times do I need to say I agree with you on this? Maybe you should heed the advice you tried to give me in the sentence above.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    When the House manages to get ALL the Republicans on board you let me know. For now, McConnell's Job #1 stands; No Republican Senator is going to vote for a Dem sponsored budget and no Republican Senator will put forth a budget that a Dem would vote for. Job #1 accomplished.
    Why do they need all Republicans? That's now how it works. You need a majority. They have that. The Dems didn't even ALLOW a vote on their proposal so we have no clue how it would be voted upon to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Sometimes in a divorce one side IS 100% at fault, unless you think it's the "fault" of a spouse who is unwilling to put up with their partner sleeping around. Infidelity is unacceptable in my book. Are you saying it's OK in your book? Or are you just being a hack?
    Whatever bro. Hear what you want to. All I'm seeing is a budget every year, on time, from the House and nothing from the Senate since 2009. Your second attempt at smarminess due to being wrong is the equivalent of the old "So, have you stopped beating your wife yet?" question. This is why I don't like debating with people of your ilk. You don't know what you're talking about and resort to personal attacks to cover said ignorance.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I can see the armor cracking now. Usually, when someone is wrong, they resort to personal attacks.
    Your previous "response" wasn't responsive so I gave back what you gave me.

    Most of what you've said here isn't responsive, either. Who's wrong and who's calling who names?

    At this point I'm sick of your hackery and avoidance. You're a waste of my time and a perfect imitation of your Washington masters. The Tea Party once again proves that it can get nothing resolved by being adamant. Thank you for reminding us all of that fact.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-19-12 at 03:30 AM.
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