View Poll Results: Will Ryan as VP help or hurt Romney win election?

Voters
186. You may not vote on this poll
  • It will help Romney

    51 27.42%
  • It will hurt Romney

    84 45.16%
  • It will have no real effect on the outcome

    38 20.43%
  • Other, please explain

    13 6.99%
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Thread: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

  1. #361
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If one assumes that the medical care providers will simply eat the cost difference between what Medicare pays and what private insurance pays (for the same treatment procedures) then there is no change, but if you rationally assume that the providers will either not accept Medicare patients or will riase the costs for "normal" (privately insured) patients to cover the difference then there is an effect on "flesh and blood" patients. Gov't mandates do not magically make goods and services cost less, no matter what Obama wishes you to believe.
    I ask this because there was a discussion on POTUS on Sirius/XM yesterday afternoon between two doctors. They maintained that the over $500 billion was a negotiated reduction in payments to providers and WOULD NOT cause any actual recipients of benefits to lose one dollars worth of benefit.

    They also maintained that the Ryan plan would have made the same sort of cuts but without any negotiated aspect to it and had a far more significant chance to result in actual harm to real people.

    Keep in mind these were two doctors - one of which specialized in service to older frail people who are homebound.
    Last edited by haymarket; 08-18-12 at 09:17 AM.
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  2. #362
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I ask this because there was a discussion on POTUS on Sirius/XM yesterday afternoon between two doctors. They maintained that the over $500 billion was a negotiated reduction in payments to providers and WOULD NOT cause any actual recipients of benefits to lose one dollars worth of benefit.

    Keep in mind these were two doctors - one of which specialized in service to older frail people who are homebound.
    So, these two doctors (alone?) have agreed to accept $500 billion less for the same services and not to simply raise other fees to make up the difference? Can you provide a link to these "negotiated" savings? Are you familiar with the "doctor fix" tradition of congress adding back in the "savings" from Medicare "cuts"? It seems only the federal gov't can manage to both save and spend the same dollar. ;-)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  3. #363
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If one assumes that the medical care providers will simply eat the cost difference between what Medicare pays and what private insurance pays (for the same treatment procedures) then there is no change, but if you rationally assume that the providers will either not accept Medicare patients or will riase the costs for "normal" (privately insured) patients to cover the difference then there is an effect on "flesh and blood" patients. Gov't mandates do not magically make goods and services cost less, no matter what Obama wishes you to believe.
    You honestly believe the medical community and businesses only charge cost + 6-8% for profit???
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  4. #364
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You honestly believe the medical community and businesses only charge cost + 6-8% for profit???
    What are you talking about? You do realize that more people turn 65 every year than those over 65 that die, so that means Medicare total costs for treatment rise (not fall) every year. You, and Obama, live in some fantasy land in which medical care providers will now gladly accept less money for giving the same treatment (out of some strange desire to make less money?) for the common good. When was the last year that any actual Medicare cuts were made (not simply added back in via the "doctor fix")? Hmm....
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What are you talking about? You do realize that more people turn 65 every year than those over 65 that die, so that means Medicare total costs for treatment rise (not fall) every year. You, and Obama, live in some fantasy land in which medical care providers will now gladly accept less money for giving the same treatment (out of some strange desire to make less money?) for the common good. When was the last year that any actual Medicare cuts were made (not simply added back in via the "doctor fix")? Hmm....
    I'm talking about medical institutions taking a smaller profit in order to keep their Medicare patients. They always have the option to NOT accept Medicare patients but I suspect most of them won't take that option. Much better to reduce the profit margin slightly to keep the facility full. Empty beds and empty waiting rooms make no money at all.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #366
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That's the biggest pile of crap I've seen in quite awhile. Is that the latest from the Tea Party or was it just a Republican/conservative site? They want to cut spending so they blame the Crash on spending! LOL! The sad thing is, some people will be stupid enough to believe it regardless of the public and private reports to the contrary.
    You do know that means I'm blaming Republicans for the Crash right? Clinton kept spending relatively under control, so that only leaves two candidates for the screw up. Can you guess who?
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Are they passing anything that ANYBODY thinks the Senate or the President would consider?? No, they aren't. The Representatives in the House are building up a plank for their upcoming campaigns and you're falling for it.
    Honestly, I like Rand Paul's bill better than Ryans. Ryan doesn't reduce gov't, he just reins in the spending of it. Maybe you should look up how gov't works. Ideally, the House would pass something, the Senate would pass something. They would realize they're obviously way off. The would keep counter proposing until something passed both. I know that sounds like a fallacy that this Congress could agree on anything. However, they should at least do the due dilligence instead of what the Dems did. They just quit.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Do you truly and honestly believe that the House has done absolutely every possible thing in their power to work with the President and move issues forward? If you can honestly and with a straight face answer "yes" then I'd suggest you're the one falling prey to rhetoric. The House has been obstructing since Day One and we both know it.
    The House passed a budget and the POTUS presented a budget that sucked but at least he presented it. Who's not participating?
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    When you won't make any concessions to the other side that's not trying or negotiating, that's being obstructionist. The Republicans have shown many times that they're very good at obstructing and have no clue what "compromise" or "negotiate" means. But I'm sure you see that as a Dem screw up.
    RE-READ THE COMMENT I RESPONDED WITH!!! Take your partisan hack hat off man. You are arguing just for the sake of it.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  7. #367
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    So, these two doctors (alone?) have agreed to accept $500 billion less for the same services and not to simply raise other fees to make up the difference? Can you provide a link to these "negotiated" savings? Are you familiar with the "doctor fix" tradition of congress adding back in the "savings" from Medicare "cuts"? It seems only the federal gov't can manage to both save and spend the same dollar. ;-)
    NO. They were not speaking simply for themselves but explaining the negotiated cuts agreed to. POTUS is a radio show and I know of no text available.

    Your earlier reply to me caused me to think about it while on my hour run just now.

    Gov't mandates do not magically make goods and services cost less, no matter what Obama wishes you to believe.
    Why is it that you and others claim that President Obama simply cannot lower costs but keep services via decree or negotiated settlement or law while many of the same Obama critics do exactly that by mandating that public school teachers can indeed give the same service - or even more - at the same time they reduce wages or benefits for them?

    It seems there is a serious contradiction in the thinking process there.
    Last edited by haymarket; 08-18-12 at 11:26 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #368
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I'm talking about medical institutions taking a smaller profit in order to keep their Medicare patients. They always have the option to NOT accept Medicare patients but I suspect most of them won't take that option. Much better to reduce the profit margin slightly to keep the facility full. Empty beds and empty waiting rooms make no money at all.
    This was something discussed on the radio show I heard yesterday. They said that the companies and providers were more than willing to accept less per service in return for 38 million more customers. In the end, that trade off would net them even more money.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #369
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    NO. They were not speaking simply for themselves but explaining the negotiated cuts agreed to. POTUS is a radio show and I know of no text available.

    Your earlier reply to me caused me to think about it while on my hour run just now.



    Why is it that you and others claim that President Obama simply cannot lower costs but keep services via decree or negotiated settlement or law while many of the same Obama critics do exactly that by mandating that public school teachers can indeed give the same service - or even more - at the same time they reduce wages or benefits for them?

    It seems there is a serious contradiction in the thinking process there.
    You are mixing apples and oranges here. The gov't may indeed not offer over generous benefits and pay to teachers and still have them work (or let them leave and be replaced by others). To offer less pay for the same treatment of Medicare patients provides doctors a choice, accept a partially paid for Medicare patient or a fully paid for PPACA patient, remember that their will soon be many millions more of those PPACA patients.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #370
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You are mixing apples and oranges here. The gov't may indeed not offer over generous benefits and pay to teachers and still have them work (or let them leave and be replaced by others). To offer less pay for the same treatment of Medicare patients provides doctors a choice, accept a partially paid for Medicare patient or a fully paid for PPACA patient, remember that their will soon be many millions more of those PPACA patients.
    I see.... so when those on the right want to reduce compensation for those who dispense public education but demand the same service and labor in return - that is well and good and fair and just and works out just right. But when the administration negotiates less compensation for the insurance companies and providers in return for a increased customer pool, that is a violation of the principle that you cannot demand more for less.

    Got it.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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