View Poll Results: Will Ryan as VP help or hurt Romney win election?

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  • It will help Romney

    51 27.42%
  • It will hurt Romney

    84 45.16%
  • It will have no real effect on the outcome

    38 20.43%
  • Other, please explain

    13 6.99%
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Thread: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

  1. #331
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Wrong! See, that's why republicans lose, because they are blinded by their ideology instead of taking all the facts into consideration.
    I think you're more describing a partisan than a republican.

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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Obamacare does not give the people that need NOTHING a tax cut just because they want one...Obamacare covers a person thats been put out of work and cant find a job because of outsourcing a way to give his CHILD medical treatment..
    Um... no it doesn't. That program is called "S-CHIP" and "Medicaid", and we already had that without having to cut Medicare for current seniors.

    You can cut Social Security and Medicare the "RIGHT" way and I will be right with you....
    So you would be on board with reducing Medicare in such a way as to A) put individual seniors in charge of what get's cut for them - figuring that they know best what they need and B) cutting more from wealthy retirees in order to cut less (or none at all) from poorer retirees?

    Just try to cut it to give the pigs more and I will fight you till I stop breathing....
    yes, yes, we know, we know, you hate rich people like my uncle who created jobs and supports 50 odd families.

    whos kidding who here ...rightwing bs rhetoric doesnt work with me...I listened to that **** for longer than you been in existence
    I wonder about that. Your description of typical republicans in other threads demonstrates a very disregard and degradation of them, not a sympathetic I-used-to-be-that variety.

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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    What about all the deaths the US Military causes through war, and fighting two wars at once is very costly and stressful to the US budget?
    I'm going to save myself a lot of time and effort and copy for you the response I wrote to a very similar question that I feel covers what I would say fairly well:


    1. the Middle East remains a strategic center of gravity in the world for two major reasons: the oil and the canal, and huge chunks of the world economy are dependent on both of those. instability in the region threatens those two facets, thus threatening the world (and our) economy.

    2. the Middle East is inherently unstable, as demonstrated by nothing better than recent events. Tyrannical governments keep their populace in line with the stick of the mukhaberat and the carrot of the welfare state based on revenues generated from nationalized resources (read: oil and the Suez). But that rentier state carrot is intensely vulnerable to falling revenues and - as the Iranian Shah and Mubarak learned to their chagrin - can rapidly inspire revolution followed by replacement by radical (and themselves inherently destabilizing) elements. Internally, the Middle East is a bubbling cauldron, and the resources upon which much of the worlds' economy is based right there in the middle.

    Internationally, among the Sunnis, Egypt and Saudi Arabia both consider themselves the natural leaders, and have already proven willing in Yemen to shoot at each other over that disagreement. The Iraqi's also consider themselves the natural leader of the Arab world, but lately they haven't been a serious contender. The Saudis are currently attempting to take control over the region through the exportation of Wahabism, which is itself inherently destabilizing, as it preaches the overthrow of the National-Socialist model governments left over from the 60's and 70's in Egypt (check) and Pakistan, (as well, obviously, as the democracy - as much as it exists - in Lebanon and in Israel) followed by the violent unification of the region under a single banner, followed by an invasion of the rest of the world. They aren't kidding about that part, and we are idiots if we fail to take them at their word, especially as they seem to have just succeeded in part A of step 1, the removal of the Mubarak regime.

    The Iranians are the largest terror-exporting nation in the world, and they are very, very good at it. The IRGC, and in particular the Quds forces, have fostered the growth of Hezbollah (the real deadliest terrorist network in the world - Al Quada was their student, not the other way around), Hamas, and even (through proxies) Al Quada. They are currently waging a campaign to destroy the Lebanese government, and are strengthening ties with Syria and Turkey in an attempt to build a base with which to challenge the US and Saudi Arabia for dominance of the region, part of that struggle (they assume) including the destruction of Israel. The leadership of that nation Really Believes that the 13th Imam is coming soon, and that they must kick off international Jihad in order for him to arrive and bring about the End Times - and again, we are fools if we fail to take them at their word on that.

    3. the region, thus, needs an overpowering, hegemon if it is to remain stable enough to ensure the non-collapse of the world economy. Someone has to impose order and keep these nutjobs from destroying the ability of the world to access the oil and the suez. There is only one nation currently on the planet with the capacity to perform this task: the US. The US Fifth Fleet, currently headuquartered in Bahrain, is the major (and perhaps only realistic) force for stability in that region, contending with numerous, powerful forces for instability.

    4. Withdrawal or severe downdrawl of US Forces would create a power vacuum and kick off fights within the sunni community and between Iran and Saudi Arabia for regional dominance. Shiite Iran is seeking to get nukes. Syria has had a nuclear facility already destroyed by the Israelis. Sunni Pakistan (see: Wahhabi plans for governments, the overthrow and replacement of) already has them. In the face of a US Withdrawal, Saudi Arabia certainly would start developing her own.

    Imagine a Mexican standoff, except that 3 of the 4 players are A) paranoid schizophrenics facing opponents they violently hate, B) convinced that death will be a net benefit for them, C) convinced that their souls are in peril if they don't shoot, and D) potentially armed with nukes (the 4th Player is the unfortunately-located Israel). I think everyone here can agree that that is not a "stable" situation, particularly when you add in E) these countries are not internally stable, but may feel forced into an external war in order to solidify internal support and F) at least two of the players (Iran and Saudi Arabia) are held hostage by their own extremists, who feel free to act without permission, are nearly impossible to stop, and are most desirous of the conflict. And I feel that A) deserves rementioning.

    FUN FACTS WORTH NOTING: China (also nuclear) is rapidly becoming a good, good friend of Iran, and is semi-distancing itself from Pakistan (whom it largely views as a foil against India). China is also heavily invested in East Africa. It is possible that China would seek to intervene in the region to tilt the balance in Iran's favor as the US did in Saudi Arabia's. If that happens, then the newly Taliban (and nuclear!) Pakistan - which is deeply paranoid, xenophobic, and a wierd mixture of Wahhabist and neo-Deobandi - becomes an ally of Saudi Arabia, and our players are all now holding two pistols even as their inner demons scream at them to shoot first. BEST CASE SCENARIO here is that China is able to stabilize (kinda) the region, and merely takes all the oil for itself - only partially collapsing the world economy. but that's the "best" case, not the "most likely" one. it's not even really a "sorta likely" or a "semi likely" one.

    5. The West is dying. Literally - our creation of an entitlement culture and our devotion to materialism have left us with birthrates below replacement level. In both Europe and America the solution has been mass immigration - but both have had issues with assimilation. America here is comparatively lucky, her immigrants share many of her cultural assumptions. But Europe is not - the West in Europe is being replaced by a high-birthrate Islamic culture which does not accept the Enlightenment. As the immigrant populations threaten to break the local safety nets and culture, the backlash they provoke isn't what we would recognize as classic liberalism, but rather classic fascism. Nationalist groups are springing up all over Europe, though they are doomed by their own inability to breed to dying out after sparking conflict. All those aspects of the West that we consider dear; the rights of the individaul, limited, secular government, free markets... they are doomed to wither and die as the culture that upholds them does.



    The situation at current cannot sustain indefinitely - eventually the destabilizing elements that are currently inherent in the Middle East will win, and the price of loss is not just a world wide economic collapse, but the slide, decline, and perhaps fall of the West. The long-term solution is therefore to change the rules of the game. The destabilizing elements in the Middle East must be replaced with stabilizing ones. Tyrannies must (carefully) be replaced with representative governments that give public pressure an outlet other than violent overthrow. Rentier societies that encourage stagnation, revolution, and hostility abroad must be replaced with market economies that encourage trade, growth, and a politically active middle class with a vested interest in stability. Radical Islam must be replaced with a new ideology that allows Muslims to recoup their pride and independence without striking at others. In short, we need to allow the Enlightenment to do to Islam what it has done to Christianity.

    Even with our presence, US pursual of that strategy (again, as we see today) is not guaranteed, and even with US pursual of that strategy, sucess is not any kind of certain.... but if the US withdraws before these things are accomplished (or, at least, accomplished enough to become self-feeding cycles), then the game is up. the match is struck. Europe falls, China moves to become hegemon, nukes possibly fly, and back to the Dark Ages we go, but this time with much, much better weapons with which to massacre each other in the name of God.

    THAT's why i would suggest that "oh well let's just leave and let em fight it out amongst themselves" is a bad idea.

  4. #334
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Um... no it doesn't. That program is called "S-CHIP" and "Medicaid", and we already had that without having to cut Medicare for current seniors.



    So you would be on board with reducing Medicare in such a way as to A) put individual seniors in charge of what get's cut for them - figuring that they know best what they need and B) cutting more from wealthy retirees in order to cut less (or none at all) from poorer retirees?



    yes, yes, we know, we know, you hate rich people like my uncle who created jobs and supports 50 odd families.



    I wonder about that. Your description of typical republicans in other threads demonstrates a very disregard and degradation of them, not a sympathetic I-used-to-be-that variety.
    As I see it republicans like you have degradated their position...by being greedy hateful mutts...like your disgusting hate rants on a whole generation, because they didnt do WHAT THE GREAT CPWILL wanted them to do.....you act and talk like your chit dont stink.. your no better than anyone else....and you dont have dibs on degrading others...others can do it too....and you can wonder about me all you want...I got mine...and you aint near having anything near it
    Being born with a spoon stickin out your arse isnt being successful will...tell your rich uncle to stop whining its sickening

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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    As I see it republicans like you have degradated their position...by being greedy hateful mutts...
    yeah because if there is one thing your rants against "pigs" doesn't bring to mind, it's hatefullness.

    like your disgusting hate rants on a whole generation, because they didnt do WHAT THE GREAT CPWILL wanted them to do.....
    no, they failed to take basic responsibility for themselves, and failed in their basic responsibility as Americans to leave the next generation better off than their parents left them.

    you act and talk like your chit dont stink..
    not at all. the only generation worse than the boomers is the one they raised, and the follow-on effects that we are seeing now.

    your no better than anyone else...
    I have not claimed to be "better than anyone else". I have claimed that people should take responsibility for themselves, and refused to give credence to the claim that they don't have to when their situations are difficult.

    Being born with a spoon stickin out your arse isnt being successful will...tell your rich uncle to stop whining its sickening
    my uncle spent his first ten years working living in a trailer, and built that business with a high school diploma, 12-15 hour days 6 days a week, and dealing honestly with contractors and his employees. He built that business with sweat and blood, now provides through his employment food and shelter for dozens of families of men like him, and deserves every bit of respect for it. Spoon sticking out of ones' arse





    But I like how you apparently remain unwilling or unable to defend Obama's Medicare cuts for current seniors - cuts which are greater than the cuts in the Ryan Plan. I also find it interesting you didn't seem interested in discussing the particulars of the "how".
    Last edited by cpwill; 08-16-12 at 09:32 AM.

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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yeah because if there is one thing your rants against "pigs" doesn't bring to mind, it's hatefullness.



    no, they failed to take basic responsibility for themselves, and failed in their basic responsibility as Americans to leave the next generation better off than their parents left them.



    not at all. the only generation worse than the boomers is the one they raised, and the follow-on effects that we are seeing now.



    I have not claimed to be "better than anyone else". I have claimed that people should take responsibility for themselves, and refused to give credence to the claim that they don't have to when their situations are difficult.



    my uncle spent his first ten years working living in a trailer, and built that business with a high school diploma, 12-15 hour days 6 days a week, and dealing honestly with contractors and his employees. He built that business with sweat and blood, now provides through his employment food and shelter for dozens of families of men like him, and deserves every bit of respect for it. Spoon sticking out of ones' arse





    But I like how you apparently remain unwilling or unable to defend Obama's Medicare cuts for current seniors - cuts which are greater than the cuts in the Ryan Plan. I also find it interesting you didn't seem interested in discussing the particulars of the "how".

    They are pigs lets straighten that out off the git...They didnt fail you should love babyboomers they are the ones that set up this system where you ceos make all the money taking everything from their employees...this whole thing is a babyboomer creation this entire mentality of greed and screwing everyone you can...which you love so dearly...
    See babyboomers took care of the greatest generation..and Im proud of that...they grew old with dignity even those that never made much money.
    Somewhere along the line kids like you were born with no hearts...just a sense of entitlement that america is yours and F everyone else...
    I was never your kind of republican and for that I am very grateful.....your not a republican at all...your of this new creation.
    Ive worked all my life will...I have become successful and quite comfortable and I did it all on my own...know what dude...I grew up in the same tenement with alot of kids that COULDNT do what I did...I was a cop for decades and saw people that had no chance..day in and day out...now you can fault me for what I believe in...but YOU cannot diminish what ive accomplished on my own...I was a combat veteran before you were born son...and I for my country and I gave some...I earned every penny and Ive paid taxs my whole life and STILL DO EVERY YEAR....but I have something you never had...the ability to feel compassion and have the understanding that not everyone is the same and not everyone can accomplish the same lofty goals....the rich have milked this country dry...not rich like me who busted their ass...the "PIGS" at the trough and I stand by that whether you like it or not..

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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    They are pigs lets straighten that out off the git...They didnt fail you should love babyboomers they are the ones that set up this system where you ceos make all the money taking everything from their employees...this whole thing is a babyboomer creation this entire mentality of greed and screwing everyone you can...which you love so dearly...
    not at all. you continue to believe lies and distortions about those whom you disagree with. I simply don't pretend that greed is unique to a particular income bracket.

    See babyboomers took care of the greatest generation..
    They did? I thought they dumped them in retirement homes, and are depending on their inheritances to make up for their lack of retirement savings.

    Somewhere along the line kids like you were born with no hearts...


    just a sense of entitlement that america is yours and F everyone else..
    People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more to charity than people who accept that proposition. Conservatives also give more to charity despite making less money, donate more of their blood, and are more likely to spend time volunteering at a soup kitchen or shelter.

    Ive worked all my life will...I have become successful and quite comfortable and I did it all on my own..
    So you may think, but I have recently been informed that successful people who got that way by working hard are in fact pigs at a a trough stealing from others.

    know what dude...I grew up in the same tenement with alot of kids that COULDNT do what I did...I was a cop for decades and saw people that had no chance..day in and day out...now you can fault me for what I believe in...but YOU cannot diminish what ive accomplished on my own...
    Hey man, I'm all about personal responsibility and individual achievement. It seems you may want to take this problem up with President-You-Didn't-Built-That-Yourself.

    I was a combat veteran before you were born son...and I for my country and I gave some...I earned every penny and Ive paid taxs my whole life and STILL DO EVERY YEAR....but I have something you never had...the ability to feel compassion and have the understanding that not everyone is the same and not everyone can accomplish the same lofty goals....
    the same lofty goals? living on less than you make? putting your kids needs ahead of your own? working hard to provide for your family? staying faithful and true to your spouse? these are lofty goals that people who are poor cannot accomplish? bullhockey.

    the rich have milked this country dry...not rich like me who busted their ass...the "PIGS" at the trough and I stand by that whether you like it or not..
    According to the CBO all income quintiles have risen even as standards of living have also increased and approximately 86% of American Millionaires are Self-Made.





    But hey, when are you going to tell us what you think of Obama's $716 Billion cuts to Medicare for current seniors, and whether or not you think that the proper way to cut Medicare involves putting individual seniors in charge of deciding what gets cut for them and tilting the benefit away from the wealthy and towards the poor?
    Last edited by cpwill; 08-16-12 at 10:13 AM.

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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    But hey, when are you going to tell us what you think of Obama's $716 Billion cuts to Medicare for current seniors, and whether or not you think that the proper way to cut Medicare involves putting individual seniors in charge of deciding what gets cut for them and tilting the benefit away from the wealthy and towards the poor?

    Ive told you many times over CPwill...I dont play the break down each sentence game and play answer 30 questions....and im not starting now..Im also not running all over google to find you proof of anything...so Im going to keep it short and sweet.

    There are more experts that say he did not cut from medicare...that it comes from savings and other cost cutting...there are benefits he gave medicare recipients like no copay on some very necessary tests....but in the end...NOW PAY ATTENTION....I never said cutting medicare or any entitlement was a bad thing...to the contrary I think its necessary...I just believe the teaparty way is full of c hit and a gimme to whiney rich...
    When real Republicans like John McCain step forward and work something out with democrats that benefits everyone..then Ill take notice...anything that comes from ryan instantly gets a thumbs down and anything that comes from the idiot teaparty house...all theyve passed is tax cuts for the rich...

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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    not at all. you continue to believe lies and distortions about those whom you disagree with. I simply don't pretend that greed is unique to a particular income bracket.



    They did? I thought they dumped them in retirement homes, and are depending on their inheritances to make up for their lack of retirement savings.







    People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more to charity than people who accept that proposition. Conservatives also give more to charity despite making less money, donate more of their blood, and are more likely to spend time volunteering at a soup kitchen or shelter.



    So you may think, but I have recently been informed that successful people who got that way by working hard are in fact pigs at a a trough stealing from others.



    Hey man, I'm all about personal responsibility and individual achievement. It seems you may want to take this problem up with President-You-Didn't-Built-That-Yourself.



    the same lofty goals? living on less than you make? putting your kids needs ahead of your own? working hard to provide for your family? staying faithful and true to your spouse? these are lofty goals that people who are poor cannot accomplish? bullhockey.



    According to the CBO all income quintiles have risen even as standards of living have also increased and approximately 86% of American Millionaires are Self-Made.





    But hey, when are you going to tell us what you think of Obama's $716 Billion cuts to Medicare for current seniors, and whether or not you think that the proper way to cut Medicare involves putting individual seniors in charge of deciding what gets cut for them and tilting the benefit away from the wealthy and towards the poor?


    Here ya go Cp.....watch the video

    Soledad O’Brien Fact-Checks Sununu’s Medicare Cut Claim: We ‘Hold All Our Guests Accountable’ | Mediaite


    O’Brien cited a July 24th, 2012 Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report to Speaker Boehner, which said that, if the Affordable Care Act is repealed, “spending for Medicare would increase by an estimated $716 billion over that 2013-2022 period.” That same report, she added, also says that keeping ObamaCare would not equate to a $716 billion decrease in Medicare funding — its cost would continue to rise, only not as rapidly.

    Furthermore, she adds, a report from FactCheck.org says that the “law stipulates that guaranteed Medicare benefits won’t be reduced and it adds some new benefits, such as improved coverage for pharmaceuticals.”

    Her research from the CBO letter is echoed in her discussion with Romney surrogate Tim Pawlenty this morning, where the two also debated whether the change can be described as a “cut” or a “permanent reduction.”

  10. #340
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    Re: Paul Ryan, Help Or Hurt Romney

    It’s Romney’s Medicare plan now

    "Mitt Romney today answered one of the biggest questions of his presidential campaign, taking full ownership of presumed vice presidential nominee Rep. Paul Ryan’s controversial Medicare plan. In an interview with WBAY in Green Bay, Wisconsin, Romney explained, ”Actually, Paul Ryan and my plan for Medicare, I think, is the same, if not identical — it’s probably close to identical.”

    "Ryan’s plan, which Romney has now fully endorsed, was hugely unpopular when it was working its way through Congress, and some polling indicated that people liked it less the more they heard about it. But Romney has clearly made a strategic gamble that he can convince the American people before November that Medicare is in such dire straights that it will die without Ryan’s brutal medicine."

    Mitt Romney - Salon.com
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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