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Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firearm?

Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firearm?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 8.3%

  • No

    Votes: 40 83.3%

  • Other

    Votes: 4 8.3%
  • Total voters
    48
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

haymarket said:
T.

The word EXTREMISM does not begin to do justice you the entire sick affair.
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this makes no sense whatsoever
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

TurtleDude said:
Oh yes you can


putting the wrong person in the white house often costs thousands of lives

and merely possessing a gun does not do anything

One of the reasons why I practice all the time with weapons is in case people like you get into positions of power
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Here is what I said
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What? So you can hug me while holding your rifle?

You followed it up by responding to haymarket:

haymarket said:
So that you can engage in acts of political assassination!!!!! This is a terrible thing to say. It really has no place in civilized discourse.
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TurtleDude said:
oh there are many cases where the cause of civilization would be advanced by the surgical removal of certain individuals.
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haymarket said:
And you do not get to make that call.
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TurtleDude said:
actually the purpose of having a well armed citizenry is to allow many to make that call
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"Surgical Removal" in this case is assassination/murder.

if you think NEED is a requirement to exercise a RIGHT you are , without a doubt, CLUELESS about the concept of a RIGHT
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Do you believe you NEED to be stable, mentally, to be able to posses a firearm?
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

If the right constantly argues that Americans should have to get voter IDs in order to exercise their right to vote, I don't see why they'd have a problem with requiring training in order to exercise the 2nd amendment. ;)
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Hatuey said:
If the right constantly argues that Americans should have to get voter IDs in order to exercise their right to vote, I don't see why they'd have a problem with requiring training in order to exercise the 2nd amendment. ;)
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I agree all people SHOULD have some training... the issue is that it would limit the right of the people to keep and bear arms

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

I guess everyone should have a college degree before they are allowed to exercise their right to freedom of speech... it's kinda the same thing.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

TurtleDude said:
this makes no sense whatsoever
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yup - being a morning person this is what happens when I post late at night after a very long day. Here is the proper sentence

The word EXTREMISM does not begin to do justice to you and the entire sick affair of advocating assassinations and using some whacko right wing writings to justify the thought.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Wake said:
I don't see it as being necessary. If it's true that prospective gun owners already do some sort of class/training, an additional class on marksmanship seems unneeded. Seems to me like another way to hinder gun owners.
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It is not true that all gun owners already do some sort of training. My state, SD, is an example. We do not require a permit to buy any firearm. We do not require a permit to carry in your home or place of business. We do not require a permit to carry openly in public.

We only require a permit to carry concealed. No class of any kind is required to obtain this permit. $10 and a simple application to the Sheriff's office will get you a permit in the mail within 2 weeks, provided you pass the background check.

Further, we are moving away from requiring a permit at all, to carry concealed or otherwise (link). Permits will still be available so that citizens may take advantage or reciprocity laws with other states.

We view the right to carry a firearm anywhere in public as fundamental a right as religion and speech.

However, we also honor the concern over untrained persons carrying a lethal weapon. Our compromise, therefore, is to add basic gun safety as part of the mandatory highschool curriculum; a class taught by law local enforcement which would cover law, maintenance and basic marksmanship, to include range qualification.

The end result would be a trained citizen lawfully enjoying their right to carry without be infringed upon by permit requirements. Both sides of the issue would get everything they want.
 
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Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

I would perfer responsible gun owners to good shots. One does not necessarily have to be a good shot to defend their life or the life of others.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Schutzengel said:
I agree all people SHOULD have some training... the issue is that it would limit the right of the people to keep and bear arms

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

I guess everyone should have a college degree before they are allowed to exercise their right to freedom of speech... it's kinda the same thing.
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The same argument could be made with requiring voter ID in order to vote.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Hatuey said:
The same argument could be made with requiring voter ID in order to vote.
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No it could not. It is important in a democracy that voting be limitted to those that are eligible to vote and that requires POSITIVE identification of the voter. The law requires voters to be U.S. citizens, of at least age 18 that are RESIDENTS of the state/district that they are voring in. Obviously the poll workers must have some method of ensuring that each voter is permitted to vote only once and only as themselves in any single election; that requires, at a mimimum, positive identification of the voter. The very same state issued, photo ID is required for many other things including, but not limitted to, buying alcohol, tobacco, firearms, ammo and hunting/fishing licenses, cashing payroll, gov't and personal checks and using many other public services. To assert that NO personal costs or efforts be required to vote (or exercise) any other constitutional rights is absurd; are we to assume that a cab or limo must also be provided to transport each citizen to/from the voter registration/polling place? All that is required is for the requirement to be the least restrictive in order to accomplish the public good and a state issued, photo ID fits that bill for MANY rights and privileges, including voting and the purchase of firearms/ammo.
 
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Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Why would photo ID requirement to perches a firearm be bad?
Reporting for the Daily Constitutional: GA Anderson

Although the specific objections vary, the bottom line for most opponents is that any 'firearm ID' law with a photo ID requirement would cause an undue burden, if getting one involves any cost, or could be an undue hardship for people that do not already have an acceptable photo ID.

The undue burden objection usually refers to costs. Many states offer programs for free state ID cards, but other states charge fees that can range from $25 to $70. For the groups cited as being most disenfranchised by these costs; the elderly on fixed incomes, those on social services rolls, and many minority groups, that additional cost could be a factor causing them to not be able to lawfully defend themselves.
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...........
 
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Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Hatuey said:
If the right constantly argues that Americans should have to get voter IDs in order to exercise their right to vote, I don't see why they'd have a problem with requiring training in order to exercise the 2nd amendment. ;)
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if the left things people ought to show IDs to buy guns and have to submit to a background check, why does the left oppose merely having an ID to vote

your response makes no sense-its only if the right wants people to prove literacy or intelligence would your analogy make sense
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

TurtleDude said:
if the left things people ought to show IDs to buy guns and have to submit to a background check, why does the left oppose merely having an ID to vote
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WHY? Do you know of any cases where dozens of innocent people were slaughtered by voters without proper ID?

I have been voting for forty years. My signature which I give when I want to vote each time matches my signature in the voter registration ID has sufficed for all that time.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

I don't like guns and I am sad that the US Supreme Court decided Heller the way that they did. I say this not because of my vast con law knowledge, which is nonexistant, but purely from a base, emotional reaction.

But this is a country of laws, and the Supremes have the last say. Gun ownership is now and forever more a fundamental right of every American -- a right government may not burden without a constitutionally sound reason.

I don't think Heller set out a standard for measuring the need government must show before it can burden the right to own a gun, and I am not a student of all the cases on gun rights since 2005. But even if we are to use a "lemon test", IMO, 99% of the laws and municipal ordinances on guns now in existence fail.

The question no longer is "what will most effectively reduce gun violence"? We're past that debate now, and those of us who engage in it are guilty of defying the very same Bill Of Rights we cling to so fervently on other issues.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

TurtleDude said:
if the left things people ought to show IDs to buy guns and have to submit to a background check, why does the left oppose merely having an ID to vote

your response makes no sense-its only if the right wants people to prove literacy or intelligence would your analogy make sense
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I want to point out that, IMO, this post makes a perfectly ridiculous argument. Americans have an array of constitutionally-guaranteed rights, and the Supreme Court has always said government may burden some more than others. There are lemon tests for some and strict scrutiny for others.

I'd also suggest that among all the rights Americans are guaranteed, the right to gun ownership is unique. Nowhere else is the tension between your rights and mine so obvious. There are many reasonable questions left to decide in this area, and I hope the Supremes speak to them, because the right to gun ownership is so dear to so many of my fellow citizens, and whatever burdens may constitutionally be placed on them are dear to me.

But of all the restrictions that may be constitutional after Heller and its progeny, the obligation to demonstrate to some government official that you can shoot straight is a preposterous one, IMO.

 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Das Sozialist said:
Do you believe Americans should have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firearm? Why or why not?
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Absolutely not, that is functionally just another hoop in exercising rights and we shouldn’t be making it tougher to exercise our rights. If anything, marksmanship should be taught in high school.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

haymarket said:
WHY? Do you know of any cases where dozens of innocent people were slaughtered by voters without proper ID?

I have been voting for forty years. My signature which I give when I want to vote each time matches my signature in the voter registration ID has sufficed for all that time.
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Even those under 18, convicted of a felony and non-citizens have that ability to "match their own signatures" perhaps even multiple times. I can sign many names, yet that does not give me the right to vote multiple times. I live within 1 mile of a county line and could easily vote in multiple districts under different name/address combinations if no "positive" ID was required.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

ttwtt78640 said:
Even those under 18, convicted of a felony and non-citizens have that ability to "match their own signatures" perhaps even multiple times. I can sign many names, yet that does not give me the right to vote multiple times. I live within 1 mile of a county line and could easily vote in multiple districts under different name/address combinations if no "positive" ID was required.
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I'm originally from Chicago, where a man had the right to vote as many times as he could get away with. Dead pets too!
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

The day for asking what "should" be done to reduce gun violence has passed. The only question left is what government may do to burden the right to own guns -- and I think a marksmanship requirement and almost all other existing burdens on the right to own guns are patently unconstitutional.

Wanna reduce gun violence? So do I. Let's discuss ways to do that that are legal. I agree with Ikari -- education is a great idea, but it's not the only option available.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Das Sozialist said:
Do you believe Americans should have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firearm? Why or why not?
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To carry a firearm in public (non-hunting) people should have a valid security reason. e.g. transporting cash or valuables.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Pinkie said:
Wanna reduce gun violence? So do I. Let's discuss ways to do that that are legal. I agree with Ikari -- education is a great idea, but it's not the only option available.
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What I would say is that I would like to reasonably reduce gun violence through methods which preserve the rights of the individual. Gun violence will never be zero, and I understand that point.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

ttwtt78640 said:
Even those under 18, convicted of a felony and non-citizens have that ability to "match their own signatures" perhaps even multiple times. I can sign many names, yet that does not give me the right to vote multiple times. I live within 1 mile of a county line and could easily vote in multiple districts under different name/address combinations if no "positive" ID was required.
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I understand your point - however - in real life we have precious few examples of such voter fraud. This is a solution in search of a problem.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

haymarket said:
I understand your point - however - in real life we have precious few examples of such voter fraud. This is a solution in search of a problem.
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Of course you have few examples of "this kind" of voter fraud since that would REQUIRE that an ID to be presented by the voter to prove it. That is akin to denying that shoplifting exists simply because an inventory shortage is noticed, since few are actually caught red handed with products hidden inside their clothing as they leave the store. I agree that it may not be as widespread as we THINK it is, yet ALL assert that voter ID laws will affect MOSTLY demorat voters, how can that assertion be proven?
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

ttwtt78640 said:
Of course you have few examples of "this kind" of voter fraud since that would REQUIRE that an ID to be presented by the voter to prove it. That is akin to denying that shoplifting exists simply because an inventory shortage is noticed, since few are actually caught red handed with products hidden inside their clothing as they leave the store. I agree that it may not be as widespread as we THINK it is, yet ALL assert that voter ID laws will affect MOSTLY demorat voters, how can that assertion be proven?
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I believe the suggestion is that there is a large group of people who tend to vote Democratic that may be on the end of the socio-economic spectrum where the obtaining of proper ID may pose a financial burden akin to a poll tax. Another group is the elderly who may not have seen their proper papers in decades.
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

hazlnut said:
To carry a firearm in public (non-hunting) people should have a valid security reason. e.g. transporting cash or valuables.
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You wish the constitution was different on this point. It's not. Care to move on?
 
Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

Ikari said:
What I would say is that I would like to reasonably reduce gun violence through methods which preserve the rights of the individual. Gun violence will never be zero, and I understand that point.
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I couldn't agree more, Ikari. It's time for the medical community and the social scientists to start urping ideas to reduce gun violence -- because asking the government to handle the problem is no longer an option.
 
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