View Poll Results: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firearm?

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Thread: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firearm?

  1. #141
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    I know there are, my question is asking if you believe that a law/the law should be in place preventing the mentally incompetent and/or convicted felons from obtaining firearms.
    that's pretty much a red herring. the issue is that many on the left and a few on the right don't want honest competent people owning guns. that is the area where discussion is pertinent

  2. #142
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    Fair enough.

    If I may ask, do you believe American citizens should be able to own rocket propelled grenades, or similar weaponry?
    Seeing how one of the reasons for the 2nd amendment is to take down their government should it become too tyrannical and to defend themselves against an invading I believe American citizens should be allowed to own what ever law enforcement and the military can get their hands on assuming they pay for it themselves and have a place to properly store it.

    I know that many libs like to use the 'but they didn't have that back then' as an excuse for infringing on 2nd amendment rights?So would you mind if American citizens owned rockets, canons, Ballistas, bombs, grenades,Mortars, Hwacha, Ribauldequin, fire arrows and other types of weapons that were around during and before the 2nd amendment was written?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #143
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Seeing how one of the reasons for the 2nd amendment is to take down their government should it become too tyrannical and to defend themselves against an invading I believe American citizens should be allowed to own what ever law enforcement and the military can get their hands on assuming they pay for it themselves and have a place to properly store it.
    Missiles/Tanks/Armed Aircraft/Etc.? Does the same belief apply?
    Last edited by Das Sozialist; 08-10-12 at 03:13 AM.

  4. #144
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    Missiles/Tanks/Armed Aircraft/Etc.? Does the same belief apply?
    I did say what ever law enforcement and the military can get their hands on assuming they pay for it themselves and have a place to properly store it.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  5. #145
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I did say what ever law enforcement and the military can get their hands on assuming they pay for it themselves and have a place to properly store it.
    For me it is more about proportionality. Weapons like RPGs and tanks give an individual a disproportionate amount of power. A citizenry armed with handguns and various types of rifles, could overthrow a tyrannical government IF ENOUGH CITIZENS supported such an action. A lone wacko, or even several wackos, with assault rifles can still be taken out by local law enforcement or a SWAT Team. Some wackos with RPGs and tanks, well, they will be able to do a disproportionate amount of damage and thus I canít support the right to own those weapons.

    Also, your reasoning would open the way for biological weapons. They aren't cost prohibitive after all.
    Last edited by Sarcogito; 08-10-12 at 03:58 AM.

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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I did say what ever law enforcement and the military can get their hands on assuming they pay for it themselves and have a place to properly store it.
    Biological, Chemical, and Nuclear weapons are fine as well, then?

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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    Missiles/Tanks/Armed Aircraft/Etc.? Does the same belief apply?
    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    Biological, Chemical, and Nuclear weapons are fine as well, then?
    I currently have 11 pre-written responses on the issue of gun control. Here is #10:

    DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER
    ~snip~

    We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those "in common use at the time." 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of "dangerous and unusual weapons."

    ~snip~

    It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service--M-16 rifles and the like--may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment's ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

    FindLaw | Cases and Codes
    Pistol: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
    Rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
    Automatic rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
    Hand grenade: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
    Grenade launcher: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
    Rocket launcher: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
    Patriot missile battery: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
    Nuclear warheads: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    OK. SO the only need required for owning crack is that I wish to own it? The only need for owning a meth lab is that I want to own it? The only need for me wanting a nuke is that I want to own it? A tank? A missile launcher? There are no lines, right?
    Crack Cocaine: In common use at the time: No. Is dangerous and unusual: Yes.
    Methamphetamine: In common use at the time: No. Is dangerous and unusual: Yes.
    Meth-lab: In common use at the time: No. Is dangerous and unusual: Yes.
    Nuclear weapon: In common use at the time: No. Is dangerous and unusual: Yes.

    Tanks are not weapons. Tanks are vehicles weapons can be mounted on, but anyone with enough money to buy one can own a tank. That does not mean you can have a functioning cannon, 50cal machine gun, 2 saw machine guns, or grenades...it means you can have the tank and the tank only. You can own a black hawk helicopter, also...doesn't mean you can have the twin mini-guns.

    Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Criminals generally want easy targets. Having a gun makes you a harder target. When you're in a population which carries, you are safer even if you don't carry a gun yourself, because a criminal has no way of knowing if you're carrying concealed or not and doesn't want to risk finding out the hard way.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-10-12 at 05:34 AM.

  8. #148
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Has the supreme court actually heard the case and actually addressed the so called assault weapon's ban? I don't believe it has. It took 33 years for DC vs Hellar to be heard and declared unconstitutional, this could have been due to the fact it required perfect timing to wait for the political makeup of the SC to change and a lawyer willing to take the case. So other constitutional laws like these assault weapon bans may take awhile to be struck down.
    Do you really doubt for a single minute that the NRA would not have found a way during those ten years to get a case to the Court for a ruling? And what about the states that still have similar laws on the books and are perfectly legal and valid? They have not been struck down.

    The fact is a simple one: nobody has a unlimited right to have any arm they want to possess and use. And the reality of that is indeed an infringement - which is permissible. We are only arguing about what the reasonable limits are.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #149
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I currently have 11 pre-written responses on the issue of gun control. Here is #10:


    Pistol: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
    Rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
    Automatic rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
    Hand grenade: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
    Grenade launcher: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
    Rocket launcher: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
    Patriot missile battery: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
    Nuclear warheads: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.


    Crack Cocaine: In common use at the time: No. Is dangerous and unusual: Yes.
    Methamphetamine: In common use at the time: No. Is dangerous and unusual: Yes.
    Meth-lab: In common use at the time: No. Is dangerous and unusual: Yes.
    Nuclear weapon: In common use at the time: No. Is dangerous and unusual: Yes.

    Tanks are not weapons. Tanks are vehicles weapons can be mounted on, but anyone with enough money to buy one can own a tank. That does not mean you can have a functioning cannon, 50cal machine gun, 2 saw machine guns, or grenades...it means you can have the tank and the tank only. You can own a black hawk helicopter, also...doesn't mean you can have the twin mini-guns.

    Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Criminals generally want easy targets. Having a gun makes you a harder target. When you're in a population which carries, you are safer even if you don't carry a gun yourself, because a criminal has no way of knowing if you're carrying concealed or not and doesn't want to risk finding out the hard way.
    Loved this post Jerry.

    Repeated for truth.
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  10. #150
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that's pretty much a red herring. the issue is that many on the left and a few on the right don't want honest competent people owning guns. that is the area where discussion is pertinent
    Actually it is not. The issue of felons and the mentally ill NOT being able to have the right to keep and bear arms is indeed relevant because it is an INFRINGEMENT which is permitted by law and is perfectly Constitutional. As such it is a reminder that the right is NOT unlimited or absolute.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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