View Poll Results: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firearm?

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Thread: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firearm?

  1. #111
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Only in that it should say "No seriously, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"
    Wouldn't that be infringing upon someone's rights by not allowing them to own a firearm if they're declared incompetent?

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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    If the person is declared incompetent, I ask the same question. Should they be allowed to possess firearms?
    If they are deemed incompetent, then they don't have the legal capability, nor the freedoms necessary to own firearms. This would be like children having the legal right to buy guns.
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    If they are deemed incompetent, then they don't have the legal capability, nor the freedoms necessary to own firearms. This would be like children having the legal right to buy guns.
    I am assuming since you responded to the original question, you are a supporter of the second amendment as is. They are still a United States citizen, denying them any rights/freedoms that the constitution provides would be hypocritical. If you don't believe we should be able to regulate firearms for the competent, then (assuming you are a supporter of the 2nd Amendment) regulating firearms for the incompetent should be a no-go as well.
    Last edited by Das Sozialist; 08-09-12 at 11:28 AM.

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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    I am assuming since you responded to the original question, you are a supporter of the second amendment as is. They are still a United States citizen, denying them any rights/freedoms that the constitution provides would be hypocritical. If you don't believe we should be able to regulate firearms for the competent, then (assuming you are a supporter of the 2nd Amendment) regulating firearms for the incompetent should be a no-go as well.
    It depends on what factors a legal incompetency status, and guardianship has been court-ordered in relation to. Iow, would I give a gun to a mentally retarded individual with violent tendencies? Of course not. He is not competent to make sound judgements, any more than a 5 year-old would be.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It depends on what factors a legal incompetency status, and guardianship has been court-ordered in relation to. Iow, would I give a gun to a mentally retarded individual with violent tendencies? Of course not. He is not competent to make sound judgements, any more than a 5 year-old would be.
    But are you for or against allowing those declared mentally incompetent to exercise their second amendment right without infringement?

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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    Wouldn't that be infringing upon someone's rights by not allowing them to own a firearm if they're declared incompetent?
    Yes, yes it would. To exercise force you must demonstrate the need to do so. Which is why I wouldn't have any form of active regulation along this mark. But we have certainly seen cases of the mentally infirm and their rights being restricted. From Contract to Speech, those declared mentally infirm can have the lot infringed upon. So we already do this. And for extreme cases I can understand the desire to keep guns out of the hands of the truly crazy. If there is evidence that they are infirm, then perhaps it is reasonable to say we can regulate on it given the aggregate probabilities of abuse and (as is true in many cases of the mentally infirm) the lack of ability to understand it. But we'd have to be very careful with HOW we allow it, and the government cannot be allowed unfettered movement. I'd rather the crazy guy get the gun than government run wild with unrestricted power.

    But this dynamic already exists, so we don't really need more laws. Now, what was your point?
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    But are you for or against allowing those declared mentally incompetent to exercise their second amendment right without infringement?
    Those declared mentally incompetent have guardians, which puts them in the classification with children, so that's really a moot point.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by Das Sozialist View Post
    You still did not answer my questions.


    There is no leeway in the first amendment, you cannot prohibit the establishment or exercising of religion and you cannot abridge freedom of speech, press, or the right to assembly. That means no hindrance/reduction whatsoever. The second amendment is more vague, claiming:

    There is no leeway in the 2nd amendment, it specifically says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.That means the government has no business infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms.It means it is illegal for the government to require you to jump through hoops prior to exercising that right.

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed


    It says nothing about not being able to regulate it, in fact, it says specifically, a well regulated (controlled) militia is necessary to the security of a free state.
    The regulated militia is a separate right.Just like Religion is a separate right from freedom of speech, press,peaceful assembly and to petition grievances.
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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    most of this thread is just replowing the same old ground but planting nothing.

    The right to bear arms is infringed on in many ways, most of which the NRA is onboard for. The 2nd A makes no age qualification, no mental competency, no prior convictions clause, no limit on rate of fire, or caliber size for that matter.

    Yet we have many restrictions on the Right to Keep and Bear.

    Now I have no problem with no training before purchase, would like to see a more complete training requirement for concealed carry and for hunters. Keeping a weapon for home defense is one thing, carrying out in public to include hunting is a different story. A musket in 1776 isn't anything like my 308 LTR. Hamilton's dueling pistol is a wimp compared to my XD45.

    As far as private ownership of firearms resisting a tyrannical Gubmint, seems most of those spouting that crap already claim we have one, yet I see no populous uprising...

    Might be because for all the tough guy talk, they have enough sense to realize armed insurrection is a lot different from the one-way ranges they play on.

    A bit less pompass posturing and a lot more reasonable dis-cuss-ion.

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    Re: Should Americans have to undergo marksmanship training to be able to own a firear

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    most of this thread is just replowing the same old ground but planting nothing.

    The right to bear arms is infringed on in many ways, most of which the NRA is onboard for. The 2nd A makes no age qualification, no mental competency, no prior convictions clause, no limit on rate of fire, or caliber size for that matter.

    Yet we have many restrictions on the Right to Keep and Bear.

    Now I have no problem with no training before purchase, would like to see a more complete training requirement for concealed carry and for hunters. Keeping a weapon for home defense is one thing, carrying out in public to include hunting is a different story. A musket in 1776 isn't anything like my 308 LTR. Hamilton's dueling pistol is a wimp compared to my XD45.

    As far as private ownership of firearms resisting a tyrannical Gubmint, seems most of those spouting that crap already claim we have one, yet I see no populous uprising...

    Might be because for all the tough guy talk, they have enough sense to realize armed insurrection is a lot different from the one-way ranges they play on.

    A bit less pompass posturing and a lot more reasonable dis-cuss-ion.
    Armed revolt is the last option of a desperate people. We are not quite there yet. You do not want to haphazardly engage in it because you never really know what the outcome may be. Which is why it must be left as a last resort option.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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