View Poll Results: Do you oppose Civil Unions?

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  • Yes

    8 21.62%
  • No

    29 78.38%
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Thread: Civil Unions

  1. #61
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by TNAR View Post
    International trade involves property and the occasional conflict over said property. No government is involved in these issues, yet miraculously billions of dollars worth of goods are moved every single week. Your reliance on government for arbitration is misplaced and depressing.

    Is that supposed to be a joke? If not a poor attempt at humour it would indicate a sad lack of knowledge about international trade.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  2. #62
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Marriages are a poor and ineffective arrangement as we know them now. "I'll love you forever" is one of the greatest lies ever told. How can you know that?

    All relationships should be contractual and finite. Everyone should utilize the Civil Union agreement and should create an actual contract defining the economics and other specific expectations. Should the contracted decode to have children, a new contract for Marriage would be created and would delineate the responsibilities for the offspring until the age of majority.

    Adoption would fall under the Marriage Contract. So, if a SS couple entered a Civil Union they would convert to a Marriage Agreement if and when they adopted a minor.

    I'd really like to see a permit requirement for children. I suggest a license fee of around $1,000.00 which is placed ITF the child benefit. This could also be expanded into an MSA (Mandatory Savings Account) to replace Social Security. I know that's off-topic so we can discuss that elsewhere.

  3. #63
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    Re: Civil Unions

    How about.... we stop pretending religion has a monopoly over universal terms?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #64
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    18% of U.S. companies already recognize domestic partners for the purpose of healthcare benefits, family leave, etc. They realize what the American people have yet to do: it's not worth the effort to discriminate against same-sex unions. There are better fish to fry.

    For those who think it should be a state issue? I don't think that's right either. The effect of that concept is that if a same-sex couple is legally married in Massachusetts and subsequently moves to a state who doesn't recognize them? That state can and will deny their rights to the 'contract aspects' of marriage.

    Anti-discrimination of same-sex marriages should be handled at the Federal level as a Civil Rights issue and let's just fry bigger fish.
    You open up too many cans of worms with the "federalize" everything logic. Marriage is and always has been a state contract law issue. To assert that MAN = WOMAN is very foolish and would make ILLEGAL many things including auto insurance laws, different physical standards based on gender, title 9 college sports laws and all sorts of "separate but equal" things that now benefit females/minorities. The idea of semi-equal or ALMOST equal has been accepted in many cases. Just what "civil right" is being denied? You have no right to REDEFINE marriage, to include either SSM, polygamy, bigamy or polyamory. If the STATE marriage law says "one man and one woman" that is intentionally different than "two people", just as an auto insurance rate based on gender, a military "unisex" position requiring different physical standards based on gender or having "separate but equal" restrooms or boy/girl scouts.

    The Difference Between Polygamy, Polyamory and Bigamy - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #65
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    How about.... we stop pretending religion has a monopoly over universal terms?
    1) Would you like government to suppose God as well?

    2) Would you agree that children universally are entitled to male and female role models?

    3) Would you read this peace by Russell Kirk on the value of religion towards society?

    Russell Kirk -- Civilization Without Religion?
    Last edited by Daktoria; 08-07-12 at 12:19 PM.

  6. #66
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I don't see whether you call it Civil Unions or Marriage how that addresses the more serious legal issues?

    Even though marriage licenses are issued by states, federal marriage policy is extensive. The federal government has special tax rules for married people. It gives spouses rights and responsibilities under programs like Social Security. It offers benefits to the spouses of its several million employees. And it confers citizenship on foreigners based on their marriages to U.S. citizens.

    Should the federal government treat married gays as married, only if they live in jurisdictions that allow gay marriage?

    But what about gays who live in states that don’t have gay marriage? Should North Carolina be able to decide that its gay residents don’t get to file joint federal income tax returns, even if they are legally married by another state? Should gay federal workers get spousal benefits only if they work in gay marriage states? Or should the federal government treat gay couples as married no matter where they move?

    Some portion of marriage policy can be left up to the states. But gay marriage is also very much a federal issue requiring federal policy solutions regardless of what you call it.
    I didnt say anything about addressing any other issues or anything else. This thread was not meant to be a discussion about ssm, it is a very simple question. I just wanted to know if people cared if the government stopped using the term marriage and instead used another term. There are hundreds of threads about ssm you people can go discuss that on. This thread was simply about the term marriage and peoples attachment to it.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


  7. #67
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    Re: Civil Unions

    dammit i am not getting this thread back. ill try again another time.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


  8. #68
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post

    "unatural acts"
    (sic) Same-Sex Behavior Seen In Nearly All Animals

    Mankind is part of the animal kingdom, no matter what your specific religious belief has to say on the subject. We humans ain't special except for our capacity for advanced thought.
    True, but did you actually read your article? Did you note that some of those species suffer from genetic defect that causes the behavior, or the behavior is noted when the lack of males or females is present. Also, any references to it being a sexual preference vs a sexual act when factors do not allow access to the opposite sex can only actually be observed in species that mate for life. The birds mentioned mate for life, their instincts are to mate at a particular time in their life span, so when there is a lack of male available at that time, yes, the females join in a "union". But, is that union actually based upon a sexual preference or lack of available males? There is a distinction between homosexual acts and homosexual preference. Males of many species, apparently including humans, sometimes participate in homosexual acts as an expression of dominance, not preference.


    When and where did I ever bring religious beliefs into my arguments on this subject? When have I ever expressed religion as the basis of my view point?
    Last edited by DVSentinel; 08-07-12 at 12:26 PM.

  9. #69
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    Re: Civil Unions

    First and foremost I believe in freedom.
    A same sex couple should enjoy all the legal rights as a normal couple.
    The issue comes in that calling such a union a Marriage, offends some peoples religious beliefs.
    Simple answer, Government marries no one, but only recognizes civil unions.
    Everyone goes home happy, Freedom wins!!

  10. #70
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    Re: Civil Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    The civil union concept could elminate the petty differences both sides have about marriage. You could probably say that the idea of a union came before the concept of marriage and before governments got involved to regulate the unions which by then for all intents and purposes were called marriages. The argument that there is no such thing as traditional marriage is invalid. The idea that we can in modern times ignore what we know about homosexuality and how some people are compelled to live their lives because of the nature of how they are wired is unfair. We need to give up marriage in a legal sense because it longer represents the nature of relationships in our modern society. We can't change biology and we can't go back in time and change the compelling and overwhelming reason the concept of marriage was created. Call your union a marriage by whatever philosophical and spiritual ceremony you choose or don't call it marriage because you want to completely dissociate yourself from that ancient tradition. Remove marriage from the legal argument of what is fair. This stubborness is why we are not much further along in resolving the issue. Lets' stop being spoiled children only wanting it our way.
    answering the bolded bits

    Which "tradition" are you using? What is commonly seen as "traditional marriage" in America today is less than 200 years old. One can't use the Bible as justification for opposite sex marriages between one man and one woman because there are multiple citations of polygamous marriage in the text.


    Which culture are you talking about when you write "compelling and overwhelming reason"? There are many reasons we know of, for a societal blessing of sexual partnerships. Primary in most of them has related to just who gets to keep the 'stuff' accumulated, when the dominant member, mostly the male but not in all societies, dies
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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