View Poll Results: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

Voters
174. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, he espoused evil beliefs intentionally

    41 23.56%
  • No, he was just misguided, and possibly loony

    43 24.71%
  • No, he was right

    54 31.03%
  • IDK/Other

    36 20.69%
Page 9 of 26 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 258

Thread: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

  1. #81
    Sage
    RGacky3's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Last Seen
    08-25-15 @ 05:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    9,570

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper
    I read this whole thing, and I was looking for one word that I never found - scarcity.

    Scarcity is the fundamental measuring stick of economics, and Marx was ignorant to its existence.

    You talked about the W/DP in relations to (what a surprise) social structure, i.e. costs involved to bring to market. At no point does Marx address value based on rarity of such diamonds and real costs.

    His version of LTV had no address for involving ability and availability when it comes to labor. He determined that labor was its own measure and its own currency, and that it was equal across the board. Sweeping the street has equal merit to solving equations or mixing chemicals. It's a scary thought, as an extreme version of that school of thought resulted in Mao slaughtering several tens of millions of people.

    Also, the Marxism school of thought is still rather nouveau in the grand scheme of economic political environment.

    And in case there's subject of argument, I actually have read Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto. Been a while, but I have.
    Scarcity is part of his system ... The LTOV is a model depending on relative equilibrium of supply and demand.

    It did address ability and availability, which is why he made sure to calrify with "socially necessary labor time." Its also only meant to be applied to commodities.

    YOu have to read Marx in the context of Smith and RIcardo ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper
    Food, water, and shelter does exist at a level where everyone can be fed and sheltered, but this is because it is driven by classical macroeconomic policies. Marxist thought eventually leads to stagnation and an internal collapse on itself as time and the world passes it by. A truly Marxist state today would be about as evolved and advanced as America would be back in the pioneer days. Greed has been a driving force for man to advance in science, technology, medicine, and general betterment of society. Yeah, under Marxist philosophy nobody would freeze or starve to death, but those are the only benefits they would have. You wouldn't have that computer you're using unless you traded grain with an advanced society.
    A: Marxism IS NOT NORMATIVE ECONOMICS ... IT IS POSITIVE ECONOMICS ... (which is why Marxists of different stripes, although they all agree on the basic analysis of Capitalism all have different ideas of how to resolve the issues).

    B: There is nothing in any form of socialism that assumes no more greed, all it does is change the incentives ... Also most advances in science, technology or medicine have been publically funded on not made for profit ... after they were made the advances were taken by privatte industry to make a profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper
    They fetch less because they're not real diamonds. There has to be intrinsic value applied to the time it takes for the earth to crush carbon into shiny little stones. Having said that, I won't argue this point because I'm not female, and I think arguing over the value of diamonds is really a female thing because they raise the cost through sentimentality and other girly bullcrap.
    the sentimentality changes the supply and demand ... you can't predict those things in economic theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper
    This is one of the staples to why Maxism fails. If I spent 3000 man-hours trying to build a rocketship to Saturn with some old crates and chicken wire, does it have real value to society? Of course not. Labor does not automatically equal value, and valuable labor does not have a fixed determinant value. A street-sweeper has less intrinsic value than an engineer, despite the fact that they both perform necessary functions in society, because of the amount of people who can perform each task is quite varied.
    Ok ... You obviously havn't read Marx's Capital ... or if you did you obviously did'nt understand a single word of it ...

    Marx goes to great leangths to explain "use value" and "socially necessary labor time" and the fact that it requires a market ...

    No never said just labor for the sake of labor creates value ... He's talking about the labor put INTO commoditites, not valuing the labor itself, but valuing the commodity ... Also commodity assumes a market ...

    These are all rediculous strawmen.

    (BTW, the LTOV isn't even necessary for Marx's economic analysis)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper
    He was a philosopher, and that's all. His belief structure systematically fails from a statistical and numerical standpoint.
    He was a philosopher as well ... and many Marxists that support his economic analysis (like me) ignore his philosophy and consider it not necessary, (as I do). His economic analysis have STILL not to this day been refuted (other than by using strawmen versions of it), and were expanded on ... and actually came to fruition as time went on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper
    Government IS the biggest barrier to entry. All those TRUE monopolies I listed exist because there are legislative barriers. If you wanted to (and had the money), you could build a chain of stores in an effort to curb business from Wal-mart or Target or what have you. You could operate your own farmer market and sell veggies at whatever cost you felt was fair.

    However, if you discovered a cure for cancer and tried to go onto the internet to sell it, the FDA would come to your house and do everything but shoot you dead where you stood (and some conspiracy theorists would argue they'd do that too). If you stumbled upon an alternate form of energy, any of a dozen agencies would put your ass in chains.

    Those are government enforced monopolies.

    Also, price dumping and predatory tactics cannot be maintained in long-run economics, so even if the illegality of those were revoked, it would not persist.
    Government is also the biggest aid to entry ... (loans, public infastructure and so on) .... The real barriers to entry are simply market based, notice you said the qualifier "if you had the money" ... exactly, if you have the money you can do anything ... but thats the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper
    Corporations cannot enforce the law, and thus cannot equal government. Bill Gates and Sam Walton may have significant influence, but to say that they can ever have free rein no matter what is simply not true. It's almost a shame, as I'd trust either one more than I would damn near any standing President.
    Of coarse they can enforce their own laws ... why not?

  2. #82
    Global Moderator
    Custom User Title
    LaughAtTheWorld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Seoul/Chicago
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:35 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    9,542

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Das Kapital is a great series (that is, if it doesnt put you to sleep within the first 50 pages )
    My brain exploded after the first 10 pages.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

  3. #83
    Global Moderator
    Custom User Title
    LaughAtTheWorld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Seoul/Chicago
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:35 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    9,542

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    That being said Marx's intentions wasn't some totalitarian nightmare such as Stalin's or such, and I agree with most people that he was good-intentioned. He also undoubtedly had great intellectual capabilities. That being said, the intentions were good, yet I can't but fault him for seeing how his work can be misueed and abused so enormously. The results of his work became an illness that scourged the world for the last century. However, that's not to say that the product of his work was not totally worthless either. Many democracies took some aspects of communism and socialism which is undeniable.
    All in all, I judge him somewhat above average
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

  4. #84
    Professor

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Last Seen
    08-19-14 @ 02:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    1,824

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I disagree. I've been on board saying that the one true monopoly in America is government. No matter how lenient corporate laws become, no matter how free the trade is, they will never become the law themselves. Corporations cannot enforce the law, and thus cannot equal government. Bill Gates and Sam Walton may have significant influence, but to say that they can ever have free rein no matter what is simply not true. It's almost a shame, as I'd trust either one more than I would damn near any standing President.
    Therefore the corporations that own our government are the one true monopoly. The rule of law means the laws of the rulers.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

  5. #85
    Pragmatic Idealist
    upsideguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rocky Mtn. High
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    10,129

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Marx made a few insightful critiques a capitalism combined with an unworkable utopia fantasy. Being wrong doesn't make you a bad person, especially since Marx didn't live to see the attempts to implement his ideology.
    Kind of like Ayn Rand. Each contributed greatly to human thought by offering wonderful insight. Each philosophy, however, had a fatal flaw.

  6. #86
    Professor

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Last Seen
    08-19-14 @ 02:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    1,824

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Were there no government, corporations could pass laws and enforce them as they see fit. But, on a more realistic level where we assume that at least some government exists, corporate power is economic power, where the government exercises legal power. I don't know that one is inherently more powerful or oppressive than the other really. Legal power is more absolute. The law can lock you up or even have you put to death, and we have cops in every city in the country, so it's pretty hard to get away from. But, on the other hand, on a day to day basis, economic power coerces us far, far, more often. I might go a year before I really have any significant interaction with the law. Maybe a speeding ticket, paying taxes, going to the dmv... That's about it. But I spend 50 hours a week doing whatever a corporation tells me to do for my job, then I go buy things from corporations, I live in an apartment that is owned by a corporation, I watch tv made by corporations and I pay another corporation to deliver that programming to me, and so on. Corporations take a whole lot more money from me each year for the services and goods they provide than the government does for the services and goods it provides. They're very different kinds of power, so it is hard to compare them, but still, people wielding economic power over me have screwed up my day a whole lot more times than people wielding legal power over me have.
    People know and are ashamed of the fact that they live under totalitarian economics. They don't have enough guts to stand up to their daily oppressors, which would get them fired, so they cowardly squeak up against their monthly government oppressors, which makes them feel like fatcats when they are really mice.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

  7. #87
    Professor

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Last Seen
    08-19-14 @ 02:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    1,824

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Kind of like Ayn Rand. Each contributed greatly to human thought by offering wonderful insight. Each philosophy, however, had a fatal flaw.
    Rand's flaw is in the key incident of Atlas Shrugged, which she subconsciously twists to confuse the reader about John Galt's self-determining defiance. She clouds over the fact that Galt was a slavish flunkie and Cash Cow of the corporate moochers until their heirs tried to socialistically give away what should have belonged to him alone in the first place. By this trick, Rand advocates Investor Supremacy when the motor of the world can only be re-charged through Inventor Supremacy. Again economics misses the whole point and only rusts out the motor.

    There is a double deception here. The unearned right to inheritance causes the incident. All the socialists in the book are children of the upper class. So Rand appeases the readers' suspicion of what is really going on by baiting and switching.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

  8. #88
    Pragmatic Idealist
    upsideguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rocky Mtn. High
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    10,129

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

    I don't think he was necessarily intent on evil, but he did help create the greatest evil ever produced by mankind. Socialism.
    Don't ya just love hyperbole?

  9. #89
    User Emperor Hadrius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Last Seen
    12-31-15 @ 04:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    4

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Karl Marx -- Atheist or Satanist?



    Yes he was evil, wanting there has been much said that he wanted to destroy civilization. I actually don't think "Very Conservative" defines me well. I'm a believer in McCarthyism, and a Christian too. Any ideology responsible for the deaths of 100-200 million people cannot be innocent of the blame of what it has done. There must be some unseen evil to account for the horrors of the Paris Commune, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min, nuclear proliferation, the Kims, the Castros, all the leaders of every communist nation. This is no accident.

  10. #90
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Last Seen
    07-19-17 @ 03:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    60,458

    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Karl Marx was misguided, but not ill intentioned or otherwise a bad person.

Page 9 of 26 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •