View Poll Results: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

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  • Yes, he espoused evil beliefs intentionally

    41 23.56%
  • No, he was just misguided, and possibly loony

    43 24.71%
  • No, he was right

    54 31.03%
  • IDK/Other

    36 20.69%
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Thread: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

  1. #71
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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I read this whole thing, and I was looking for one word that I never found - scarcity.

    Scarcity is the fundamental measuring stick of economics, and Marx was ignorant to its existence.

    You talked about the W/DP in relations to (what a surprise) social structure, i.e. costs involved to bring to market. At no point does Marx address value based on rarity of such diamonds and real costs.

    His version of LTV had no address for involving ability and availability when it comes to labor. He determined that labor was its own measure and its own currency, and that it was equal across the board. Sweeping the street has equal merit to solving equations or mixing chemicals. It's a scary thought, as an extreme version of that school of thought resulted in Mao slaughtering several tens of millions of people.

    Also, the Marxism school of thought is still rather nouveau in the grand scheme of economic political environment.

    And in case there's subject of argument, I actually have read Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto. Been a while, but I have.
    What about the natural scarcity of mentally talented people and why they aren't treated like superior athletes are now, from childhood on? The reason is that they create all the wealth and the capitalists have to crush the High IQs' sense of their own value in order to pay them in coal for the diamonds they produce. Blinded by their own origin in the parasitic upper classes, Socialists also ignore the superior value of certain human resources. Raw, uncut human diamonds are ignored, so Leftist governments fund scientists who had been humiliated enough to develop their talent by crippling self-sacrifice. Neither side is watering the seeds; both want to pluck the scarce and inferior fruit that survives letting whatever can grow do it on its own.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Well team, your argument basically was a slam on anarcho-capitalism. I don't support it either. The examples you've given have nothing to do with monopolies. They're just illegal. Even with reduced sanctions, you can't just willfully break the law. This isn't the wild wild west.

  3. #73
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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Well team, your argument basically was a slam on anarcho-capitalism. I don't support it either. The examples you've given have nothing to do with monopolies. They're just illegal. Even with reduced sanctions, you can't just willfully break the law. This isn't the wild wild west.
    Right, but that's what we're talking about. That's how the balance of power shifts back and forth between corporations and the government. The more laws you have, the stricter they are and the more rigorously enforced they are, the less power corporations have over us, but the more power government has over us. The fewer laws dealing with corporations, the looser they are, or the less rigorously enforced they are, the more power corporations have over us and the less government does. So it isn't really an answer to say that "those things are illegal". That's the whole point. That's how we prevent corporations from controlling us- by making things we don't want them to do illegal.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    I disagree. I've been on board saying that the one true monopoly in America is government. No matter how lenient corporate laws become, no matter how free the trade is, they will never become the law themselves. Corporations cannot enforce the law, and thus cannot equal government. Bill Gates and Sam Walton may have significant influence, but to say that they can ever have free rein no matter what is simply not true. It's almost a shame, as I'd trust either one more than I would damn near any standing President.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I disagree. I've been on board saying that the one true monopoly in America is government. No matter how lenient corporate laws become, no matter how free the trade is, they will never become the law themselves. Corporations cannot enforce the law, and thus cannot equal government. Bill Gates and Sam Walton may have significant influence, but to say that they can ever have free rein no matter what is simply not true. It's almost a shame, as I'd trust either one more than I would damn near any standing President.
    Were there no government, corporations could pass laws and enforce them as they see fit. But, on a more realistic level where we assume that at least some government exists, corporate power is economic power, where the government exercises legal power. I don't know that one is inherently more powerful or oppressive than the other really. Legal power is more absolute. The law can lock you up or even have you put to death, and we have cops in every city in the country, so it's pretty hard to get away from. But, on the other hand, on a day to day basis, economic power coerces us far, far, more often. I might go a year before I really have any significant interaction with the law. Maybe a speeding ticket, paying taxes, going to the dmv... That's about it. But I spend 50 hours a week doing whatever a corporation tells me to do for my job, then I go buy things from corporations, I live in an apartment that is owned by a corporation, I watch tv made by corporations and I pay another corporation to deliver that programming to me, and so on. Corporations take a whole lot more money from me each year for the services and goods they provide than the government does for the services and goods it provides. They're very different kinds of power, so it is hard to compare them, but still, people wielding economic power over me have screwed up my day a whole lot more times than people wielding legal power over me have.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    First, what is "bad?"

    OK, now that we know what "bad" means, how exactly does Karl Marx deserve that quality?

    If he created the theory, is he truly responsible for what others decide to do with it years after?

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or monumentally dense. You cannot create monopolies on goods that are even remotely elastic. If you want to argue a few industries are prone to monopolization (Big Oil, the diamond cartel, Big Pharm), I can't refute that. However, to suggest that a monopoly will simply arise over every facet, product, or mean of production is laughably false. Proctor & Gamble will never hold a monopoly on household products, Birdseye will never hold a monopoly on vegetables, and General Motors will never hold a monopoly on vehicles. [...]
    Because -- government holds them in check.

    TIME Magazine October 28, 1996 Volume 148, No. 20

    After years of denying any wrongdoing, [Archer Daniels Midland] pleaded guilty to conspiring to fix prices for the livestock feed-supplement lysine and for citric acid, an additive found in products from cosmetics to soft drinks. [...] "The competitor is our friend; the customer is our enemy" was a favorite saying around ADM, according to [company executive turned FBI informant, Mark] Whitacre.

    For the company, last week's penalty represented little more than peanuts--or soybeans--and was a good deal, considering that ADM benefited financially in the
    form of higher prices. The company has $1.3 billion on hand to pay inconveniences like a $100 million fine. ADM's stock even rose $1.13 a share, to $21.75, on news
    of the penalty--which Wall Street had expected to be much higher--and finished the week at $21.50, raising the company's market value some $500 million. By that
    accounting, it can't be said that crime doesn't pay, only that it is a cost of doing business.

    --Reported by Sally B. Donnelly/Washington and William A. McWhirter/Chicago

    Archer Daniels Midland Price Fixing

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I disagree. I've been on board saying that the one true monopoly in America is government. No matter how lenient corporate laws become, no matter how free the trade is, they will never become the law themselves. Corporations cannot enforce the law, and thus cannot equal government. Bill Gates and Sam Walton may have significant influence, but to say that they can ever have free rein no matter what is simply not true. [...]
    The Dutch East India Company was a chartered company established in 1602, when the States-General of the Netherlands granted it a 21-year monopoly to carry out colonial activities in Asia. It is often considered to have been the first multinational corporation in the world [2] and it was the first company to issue stock.[3] It was also arguably the first megacorporation, possessing quasi-governmental powers, including the ability to wage war, imprison and execute convicts,[4] negotiate treaties, coin money, and establish colonies.[5]

    Dutch East India Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Dutch East India Company persisted for 196 years (1602-1798).

    The British South Africa Police (BSAP) was, for most of its existence, the police force of Rhodesia (renamed Zimbabwe in 1980). It was formed as a paramilitary force of mounted infantrymen in 1889 by [the] British South Africa Company, from which it took its original name, the British South Africa Company's Police. Initially run directly by the company, it began to operate independently in 1896 [...]

    British South Africa Police - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    1602
    1896
    Marx called it.

  10. #80
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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    First, what is "bad?"

    OK, now that we know what "bad" means, how exactly does Karl Marx deserve that quality?

    If he created the theory, is he truly responsible for what others decide to do with it years after?
    Marx is about as responsible for Stalinism as Henry Ford is responsible for fatal car accidents.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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