View Poll Results: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

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  • Yes, he espoused evil beliefs intentionally

    41 23.56%
  • No, he was just misguided, and possibly loony

    43 24.71%
  • No, he was right

    54 31.03%
  • IDK/Other

    36 20.69%
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Thread: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

  1. #51
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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hare View Post
    You sure about that? You can't think of a single action or idea implemented by mankind in all of human history that rivals the abhorrent nature of socialism?
    Or perhaps you are making some kind of reference to slavery. However, that comparison fails because socialism ends with slavery to society instead of specific master, but is still slavery.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Fascism might be considered by some, or at least Hitlers attempts at forced eugenics which some associate with fascism, however in the terms of total cost of human lives, suffering and human misery, it doesn't really come close.

    It was a terrible time in human history and indeed a great evil and it should not be forgotten, but compared with the totals of attempts to implement socialism in various forms, Hitlers numbers are a small percentage of socialisms.

    .
    Tribalism, and Eugenics all quite easily dwarf socialism in terms of deviant intentions, in the case of the two former ideologies the use of past tense would be unnecessary as genocide is being committed in the name of furthering the two ideas to this very day. Several religious sects could also qualify, but I'd hesitate to open that proverbial can of worms. Quite simply Socialism, more specifically Marx's interpretation of the theory, doesn't advocate for the taking of human life. To attribute the heinous acts of those who pursued a warped, perverted form of said ideology (one should note the motives of said actors are highly disputed by many historians), is simply absurd.
    Last edited by a351; 08-07-12 at 07:57 PM.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Or perhaps you are making some kind of reference to slavery. However, that comparison fails because socialism ends with slavery to society instead of specific master, but is still slavery.
    Referring to slavery as a lesser or somehow equal offense against mankind is both repulsive and worriesome. Communal ownership of profits and production is hardly equitable to slavery, unless you count inanimate objects and conceptual theories among the oppressed and downtrodden.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    Marx's writings were more of a critique of the type of capitalism he saw during the Industurial Revolution. That doesn't make him a bad person, and if Marx had lived now rather than then, his book might not have been written because working conditions are so much better now.
    I'd say his book is just as pertinent now as when it was written; the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer -- at least in the USA. Historically, this ultimately leads to popular revolution (for a modern example, ref: Marcos in the Philippines).

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hare View Post
    Referring to slavery as a lesser or somehow equal offense against mankind is both repulsive and worriesome. Communal ownership of profits and production is hardly equitable to slavery, unless you count inanimate objects and conceptual theories among the oppressed and downtrodden.
    To someone who believes in freedom, self determination and benefitting from his achievements, then socialism is slavery. To a slave, socialism is just another day.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    I don't know his personal life, so I can't say if he was a bad person or not. However, I would say that he was misguided and probably loony in a political sense.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    To someone who believes in freedom, self determination and benefitting from his achievements, then socialism is slavery. To a slave, socialism is just another day.
    Even if one were to muddle the difference between the literal and figurative as you've attempted, likening one to another would be both categorically false and a morbid insult to those who endured slavery in it's full and most literal form.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    To someone who believes in freedom, self determination and benefitting from his achievements, then socialism is slavery. To a slave, socialism is just another day.
    You are only concerned about being controlled by the government, but you don't mind being controlled by a corporation. A communist doesn't mind being controlled by the government, but they do mind being controlled by corporations. It isn't like one is freer or more self deterministic, it is just a question of whether you have more power over a corporation through the market or the government through elections. I tend to think the later, but neither is perfect.

    But, it is important to remember that socialism does not necessarily require a powerful central government. All it requires is worker control of the means of production. There are many ways to accomplish that. One, which was tried, is to have the elected government represent the workers in controlling the means of production. In retrospect, that doesn't work out that well, at least not when done to such a heavy handed degree as was done in the USSR. But, then again, look at what it replaced- tyranny. Under the tsars the people had no rights at all and he didn't even pretend to take their needs into consideration at all. The communist revolution was undeniably a massive step towards freedom in the USSR even if communism didn't turn out to be the ideal solution.

    But, there are other ways to achieve socialism. For example, employee owned companies, having company decisions made by workers councils instead of boards elected only by investors, cooperatives, etc. are all options for ways socialism could be implemented. IMO there are still some untried options in there that hold the possibility of being much more free from both the corporations and the government at the same time.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  9. #59
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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    To someone who believes in freedom, self determination and benefitting from his achievements, then socialism is slavery. [...]
    The only problem with your argument is that socialism, at least as described by Marx, advocates none of that. The most recent example of classic slavery that existed in this country was in the South, prior to the Civil War, and was attributable to capitalism -- the slave had no freedom, no self-determination, and his only benefit from his achievements was basic sustenance (the slave owner reaped the profits above and beyond his and his slave's basic sustenance).

    That form of slavery was replaced by what has been dubbed wage-slavery, which we still effectively have -- those who must labor to feed themselves (i.e., those who are not independently wealth)
    are limited in their freedom by the availability of employment,
    are limited in their self-determination by the availability of employment and/or their ability to educate themselves, and
    benefit only partially from thier achievements -- the employer benefits as well (as profit on their labor).

    In classic socialism, there is no employer, so the workers realize the entire benefit of their achievements.
    In classic socialism, individuals are free to determine what they want to do (in Marx's ultimate scenario, people would naturally desire to educate themselves to the extent of their abilities; this would also count as a self-deterministic achievement).
    In classic socialism, individuals are free from any government or any employer or any capitalist controlling their freedom.

    You quite simply have it backwards.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx a bad person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I read this whole thing, and I was looking for one word that I never found - scarcity.

    Scarcity is the fundamental measuring stick of economics, and Marx was ignorant to its existence.

    You talked about the W/DP in relations to (what a surprise) social structure, i.e. costs involved to bring to market. At no point does Marx address value based on rarity of such diamonds and real costs.
    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Marx
    Diamonds are of very rare occurrence on the earth’s surface, and hence their discovery costs, on an average, a great deal of labour time. -- Economic Manuscripts: Das Kapital Vol. I - Ch. One
    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    His version of LTV had no address for involving ability and availability when it comes to labor. He determined that labor was its own measure and its own currency, and that it was equal across the board. Sweeping the street has equal merit to solving equations or mixing chemicals. [..]
    My read is that he acknowledged the differing values of skilled and unskilled labor, but dismissed it for a generic calculated value for simplicity of argument:

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Marx
    Skilled labour counts only as simple labour intensified, or rather, as multiplied simple labour, a given quantity of skilled being considered equal to a greater quantity of simple labour. Experience shows that this reduction is constantly being made. A commodity may be the product of the most skilled labour, but its value, by equating it to the product of simple unskilled labour, represents a definite quantity of the latter labour alone.[15] The different proportions in which different sorts of labour are reduced to unskilled labour as their standard, are established by a social process that goes on behind the backs of the producers, and, consequently, appear to be fixed by custom. For simplicity’s sake we shall henceforth account every kind of labour to be unskilled, simple labour; by this we do no more than save ourselves the trouble of making the reduction.

    Economic Manuscripts: Das Kapital Vol. I - Chapter One

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