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Thread: Do Democrats hate wealth?

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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I think liberals are stuck on equality of outcome versus equal protection of the law.

    I think they want the poor, lower, and middle classes to receive more from... somewhere... without considering what implications that has on the entity providing more to them.

    I think they want to force the terms of private employment contracts, forcing employers to pay more than they need to or agree to.

    I think they fail to see the way need-based handouts encourage the culture to learn to be needy.

    I think they blame a lack of savings on insufficient income rather than on people's choice to spend all their money rather than save any.

    I think liberals want peace all around but fail to grasp some of the basics about financial incentives, basic human behaviorism, and individual rights.

    I think liberals understand the delicate environmental balance we're ****ing with, but refuse to acknowledge how helping the poor and feeding the hungry and giving everyone a maximum standard of living is ultimately environmentally destructive.
    Yep. The unintended consequences of "playing the system" have given us a massive increase in out of wedlock childbirth and single parent, no earner "families" that rely mainly on gov't handouts for their very existance. In order to "fix" public education and to pretend to leave "no child behind" we have instead let ALL of our children fall behind (based on world standards); it helps close the "achievement gap" but not by raising the bottom very much (if at all) but simply by lowering the average (and top?). Listening to many "youth" you now hear the words "like" and "you know" used as USELESS filler in nearly all sentences. All attempts to try to make "getting by" turn magically into a middle class existance, have simply lowered the bar while falsely increasing expectations that ANY job should somehow now provide a "living wage". The days of a highschool educated, semi-skilled trade worker being able to be Ward Cleaver are long gone in most parts of this country unless that position is in gov't and/or a union shop. USA, USA, USA...
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    No, they don't "hate" wealth.

    By and large they simply would prefer the highest levels of wealth not be attainable in exchange for the lowest levels of wealth to be rarer, with most people being in huddled in a "fat middle" type of situation.

    Conservatives, by and large, prefer the highest levels of wealth to be attainable even if the lowest levels of wealth become more common, with greater divergence throughout the "fat middle" which still holds most people.

    As I said in another thread, say that wealth in the country is represented by two numbers...one the first number being the typical "low end" number and the other being the typical "high end" number, totaling 100. Stereotypically, your Democratic ideal would see those numbers as something like (L: 35 , H: 65) where as your Republican ideal would see those numbers as something like (L: 5, H: 95).

    Democrats don't "hate" wealth anymore than republicans "love" poverty. Rather, in general, they simply place a greater need on the whole having a higher chance of being in the comfortable middle over the chances of some to attain the highest of highs while others potentially facing the lowest of lows.

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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Oddly enough, that was not my response. So lies on top of straw men. Well done!
    No, it was. You may not like my formulation of it, but it's what you said.

    In any case, Robert Reich, for one, disagrees with your assertion that liberals have "no position" on wealth:

    Liberals are concerned about the concentration of wealth because it almost inevitably leads to a concentration of power that undermines democracy.
    His cred is superior to, oh, yours vis-a-vis this particular question.

    And, of course, it confirms what I said -- liberals get their knickers in a bunch about wealth they can't control.

    EDIT:

    Oh, and to answer your question, the conservative position on the Moon is that we should send people back, establish a base, and use it as a launching point for sending men to Mars. This, of course, was set into action, and was proceeding apace, reaching the testing phase -- we would have watched Americans on the Moon only a few years from now -- but then Obama killed it.

    The further conservative position is that China intends to send men there, it would be better if we had people there to greet them when they do, rather than having them up there looking down at us. But once again, Mr. Obama saw fit to put the kibosh on all that.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 08-05-12 at 11:38 PM.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No, they don't "hate" wealth.

    By and large they simply would prefer the highest levels of wealth not be attainable in exchange for the lowest levels of wealth to be rarer, with most people being in huddled in a "fat middle" type of situation.

    Conservatives, by and large, prefer the highest levels of wealth to be attainable even if the lowest levels of wealth become more common, with greater divergence throughout the "fat middle" which still holds most people.

    As I said in another thread, say that wealth in the country is represented by two numbers...one the first number being the typical "low end" number and the other being the typical "high end" number, totaling 100. Stereotypically, your Democratic ideal would see those numbers as something like (L: 35 , H: 65) where as your Republican ideal would see those numbers as something like (L: 5, H: 95).

    Democrats don't "hate" wealth anymore than republicans "love" poverty. Rather, in general, they simply place a greater need on the whole having a higher chance of being in the comfortable middle over the chances of some to attain the highest of highs while others potentially facing the lowest of lows.
    The devil is in the details. The biggest logical falacy of the left is that effort will be expended even when it nets no gain, the biggest logical falacy of the right is that all have an equal ability to succeed regardless of how far behind that they start. Somewhere in between is the truth yet neither side is readily willing to admit that.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The gov't take, via VERY PROGRESSIVE taxation, "for the common good" was once the extent of the liberal money grab, and somewhat justified, even agreed to by the right in large part. The emphasis NOW, however, has shifted to direct income redistribution, rather than spending ONLY for common "infrastructure" or services, coupled with an attitude that even if taxation does not support this spending, that it will simply be BORROWED and spent now, thus assuring future taxation is needed to repay that debt (kicking the can down the road).
    Would you not agree however, that poverty eradication is in the common interest?

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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post
    Would you not agree however, that poverty eradication is in the common interest?
    Certainly. Now how shall we go about achieving that? Shall we take the Robbing Hood liberal approach, where wealth is taken from those who have created it and given to those who value their leisure time above all else? Or shall we take the greedy conservative Constitutional approach, where each person is free to follow his/her dreams and reap the consequences thereof? Which is it to be: equality of outcome, or equality of opportunity?
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post
    Would you not agree however, that poverty eradication is in the common interest?
    I'd not agree. I don't think it's actually possible to "eradicate" poverty without causing other issues and problems in society that can be equally damaging and harmful. I think some action towards lowering the amount of individuals in poverty or helping those in poverty in some fashion is useful, but the devil is in the details as ttwtt says...the question isn't whether or not to do it, but how to do it, how much to do, and at what cost.

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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart View Post
    Would you not agree however, that poverty eradication is in the common interest?
    Yes but you do not get LESS of something by subsidizing it (out of wedlock childbirth) and MORE of something by taxing it (wages). When living on the dole yeilds a higher standard of living than a full time job at the minimum wage, the system is clearly broken. The biggest predictor of poverty (and crime) is not completing highschool and out of wedlock childbirth. Simply not rewarding failure will go a long way to reducing it. I am not advocating letting the poor simply starve, yet I am not for all carrot and no stick either. A return to the "poor house" concept would be FAR better, IMHO, than what we have now. If you can not make it on your own then you should not be left on your own, you should be required to trade part of your freedom for getting the extra help needed to make it on your own. The current system does nothing to break the cycle of poverty, after spending billions for decades we have no less poverty to show for the effort, just a higher standard of living for the non-productive. The current system is way too much carrot and little to no stick at all.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The devil is in the details. The biggest logical falacy of the left is that effort will be expended even when it nets no gain, the biggest logical falacy of the right is that all have an equal ability to succeed regardless of how far behind that they start. Somewhere in between is the truth yet neither side is readily willing to admit that.
    Awkwardly enough, every decent sociological study in the last 40 years confirms that poverty is a trans-generational and the last 80 years of societal history confirm that in the American context, greater government involvement in people's lives did indeed improve their chances of achieving higher class statuses. Don't think so? Compare poverty rates 80 years ago vs those today. People in the Great Depression would laugh at Republicans constantly bitching about 8.3% unemployment rates.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Do Democrats hate wealth?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Do Democrats hate the wealthy?
    Only when they're not Democrats.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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