View Poll Results: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homophobe

Voters
101. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    24 23.76%
  • No

    77 76.24%
Page 31 of 44 FirstFirst ... 21293031323341 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 310 of 432

Thread: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homophobe

  1. #301
    Sage
    Ontologuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    5,516

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You know what? Some do think that. Too bad. The two arguments are not equal. No group has some exclusive right to define marriage. Marriage is not a word religious people own. This isn't an argument over WORDS, it's an argument over RIGHTS. In what ridiculous universe does the right to a definition supercede individual liberty?
    There is a valid analogy that you do not enter a cat in a dog show, and you don't, and it's not allowed, not because someone just "defined" the words "dog" and "cat", but because the inappropriate inapplicable behavior of entering a cat in a dog show is based upon what the words "dog" and "cat" having accurately meant, what they truly mean and have meant for a very long time.

    The same is true here: marriage accurately means and has accurately meant "between a man and a woman as husband and wife" for a very long time. Now, gay activists are simply trying to redefine the word, obviously.

    So, if gay activists were not trying to redefine the word, it would simply be inappropriate to allow gays to "marry", like it would be inappropriate to allow cats to be entered in a dog show.

    Now, no one rationally goes around trying to redefine the words "dog" and "cat" so they can enter their cat in a dog show.

    Yet, ludicrously, gay activists are trying to redefine the word marriage so they can get those they represent to be married and thus receive equal socioeconomic and geopolitical treatment in their relationship as a couple with the state.

    Without the redefinition of the word "marriage", this would not be a "rights" argument regarding the class of rights known as freedom (aka liberty). It would then simply be a first-test argument of application, like is it applicable to argue for allowing a two-year-old to carry a gun under the heading of the human right of liberty to bear arms. The answer to both would be "no", obviously.

    It is only within the constraints of redefining the word marriage to include more than what the word has always meant for a very long time -- between a man and a woman as husband and wife -- that the "gays should be allowed to marry" argument can be moved through the first-test of applicability an into the second test of rights.

    The redefining of the word "marriage" is what makes the matter a "rights" issue .. and until that redefinition is accepted by the state, it's not a second-test rights issue, but a first-test applicability issue.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

  2. #302
    Sage
    clownboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Last Seen
    08-17-16 @ 10:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    26,087

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel17 View Post
    Your "actuals" included the assertion that opponents of SSM are "much, much greater" in number than proponents of it. That's a demonstrably false assertion.
    You offer as proof opinion polls. I've offered as proof actual election results. The opinion polls have already been demonstrated as false conclusions in light of the reality of the results of actual votes on the matter. Look back, how many states disallow gay marriage by a vote of the people? 29, plus 12 that have voted not to honor civil unions or gay marriages from other states. How many states have voted to allow gay marriage? That would be 6. Now, do your homework and take a look at the percentage those votes to allow won by.

    People can and do say anything in those opinion polls. Heck, they'll respond differently depending upon who is asking the question or even who is listening in as they take the poll. But they're alone at the voting booth, that is the only result that counts for reals.

  3. #303
    Sage
    Ontologuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    5,516

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel17 View Post
    Your "actuals" included the assertion that opponents of SSM are "much, much greater" in number than proponents of it. That's a demonstrably false assertion.

    Half of Americans Support Legal Gay Marriage
    Majority of Americans support legalizing same-sex marriage, poll shows | The Ticket - Yahoo! News
    New Poll: Americans Increase Support Of Marriage Equality to 54%
    After President Obama’s announcement, opposition to gay marriage hits record low - The Washington Post
    http://www.langerresearch.com/upload...ayMarriage.pdf
    USA TODAY/Gallup poll: 51% agree with Obama's gay marriage endorsement

    How is stating a statistically verified fact a specious rally point?

    I would try to understand the valid perspective of people who want to stop something that won't affect them in anyway, and for which they have no rational or logical reason to oppose it.

    And while I'm not a philosopher or anything, I would wager that people who want marriage to include same-sex couples, and those who do not, might not have mutually achievable goals.
    Polls of the population at large do not represent the attitudinal perspective of those who 1) hold the traditional institution of marriage valuable, and 2) those less than 2% of the population who really want to marry. The former is much, much greater in number than the latter, obviously.

    Polls of the population at large, who include single people, those never planning on getting married, thus greater numbers of liberals who simply polly-parrot the cause of any so-called "disaffected" population sub-set, etc. do not reflect the size of the sides as I stated them previously.

    Again, all you've done is played the rally-point game, in true activist form.

    This is one of those issues where those who really have no real dog in the fight, who simply easily state their opinion over the phone to a pollster without ever having to worry about how the outcome will affect them, are really doing both sides a disservice.

    My concern is for this matter to be resolved without creating lingering animosity on either side, where negative repercussions will thus not likely occur, and my concern is that both sides achieve their foundational goal.
    Last edited by Ontologuy; 08-06-12 at 07:35 PM.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

  4. #304
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    08-07-12 @ 12:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    216

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    You offer as proof opinion polls. I've offered as proof actual election results. The opinion polls have already been demonstrated as false conclusions in light of the reality of the results of actual votes on the matter. Look back, how many states disallow gay marriage by a vote of the people? 29, plus 12 that have voted not to honor civil unions or gay marriages from other states. How many states have voted to allow gay marriage? That would be 6. Now, do your homework and take a look at the percentage those votes to allow won by.

    People can and do say anything in those opinion polls. Heck, they'll respond differently depending upon who is asking the question or even who is listening in as they take the poll. But they're alone at the voting booth, that is the only result that counts for reals.
    He said that there is a "much, much greater" number of opponents of SSM than proponents. That's what I was refuting. He didn't say that there are many, many more states that have outlawed SSM than have legalized it. That's a totally different category, and we both know it.

    First of all, the last referendum vote on SSM that I know of was in 2008, four years ago. The polls have showed the majority-support for SSM didn't materialize until 2012. So I don't understand how the fact that voters did not support SSM four years ago, eight years ago, or even longer somehow proves that opinion polls showing support for SSM in 2012 are wrong. You might consider the fact that a few people in this nation might have changed their minds since 2008. Not to mention the fact that even in presidential elections, turnout rarely exceeds 50% of eligible voters. That means out of the American population that polls show to support SSM today, something like 25% to 50% will actually vote in the upcoming election. That's what statistics refers to as a confounding variable.

  5. #305
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    08-07-12 @ 12:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    216

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    Polls of the population at large do not represent the attitudinal perspective of those who 1) hold the traditional institution of marriage valuable, and 2) those less than 2% of the population who really want to marry. The former is much, much greater in number than the latter, obviously.

    Polls of the population at large, who include single people, those never planning on getting married, thus greater numbers of liberals who simply polly-parrot the cause of any so-called "disaffected" population sub-set, etc. do not reflect the size of the sides as I stated them previously.

    Again, all you've done is played the rally-point game, in true activist form.

    This is one of those issues where those who really have no real dog in the fight, who simply easily state their opinion over the phone to a pollster without ever having to worry about how the outcome will affect them, are really doing both sides a disservice.

    My concern is for this matter to be resolved without creating lingering animosity on either side, where negative repercussions will thus not likely occur, and my concern is that both sides achieve their foundational goal.
    But you're changing the goalposts. In your first post, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    I think that a great majority of people in America and in the world associate the word "marriage" with "a man and a woman as husband and wife", and understandably so...
    You never said anything about people who "value" marriage's meaning or anything else. That might have been what you meant, but you certainly didn't say it. All you said was that a "great majority of people in America" are opposed to SSM. You can't change the goalposts and then pretend that my evidence in invalid because no one has taken on the impossible task of polling only people who "hold the traditional institution of marriage valuable." You've changed the goalposts so that you can make the tautological claim that the majority of people who oppose SSM, oppose SSM.

    And I think that the people who really have no dog in the fight are heterosexuals, since we will not be effected by the legalization of SSM. We are the people who should stay out and let a tiny minority have their equal rights.
    Last edited by Miguel17; 08-06-12 at 07:42 PM.

  6. #306
    Sage
    clownboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Last Seen
    08-17-16 @ 10:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    26,087

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    I believe Ontologuy answered your misperception of the matter perfectly. There are also people who were okay with SSM four years ago who now, seeing the will of their initiative results are actively frustrated, are now against. I know of many folks in California, who voted against Prop 8, but are very pissed off that their electoral process has been frustrated by federal courts. Again, these are people who normally don't have a dog in the hunt where it comes to SSM, but they do have a huge interest in seeing that initiatives that are passed by the people aren't ignored by the feds.

  7. #307
    Sage
    Ontologuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    5,516

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel17 View Post
    But you're changing the goalposts. In your first post, you said:



    You never said anything about people who "value" marriage's meaning or anything else. That might have been what you meant, but you certainly didn't say it. All you said was that a "great majority of people in America" are opposed to SSM. You can't change the goalposts and then pretend that my evidence in invalid because no one has taken on the impossible task of polling only people who "hold the traditional institution of marriage valuable." You've changed the goalposts so that you can make the tautological claim that the majority of people who oppose SSM, oppose SSM.

    And I think that the people who really have no dog in the fight are heterosexuals, since we will not be effected by the legalization of SSM. We are the people who should stay out and let a tiny minority have their equal rights.
    Actually, it's you who's changing the goalposts.

    You previously complained about "much, much greater numbers", but that comes from the following statement I made: "So the leaders of the "gay marriage" movement have taken what they deem to be the shortcut of redfining marriage, the only real chance for success and success soon .. much to the "don't steal our tradition from us" objection of much, much greater numbers of people who don't want their institution of marriage sullied."

    Now you change the goalposts to my other statement: "I think that a great majority of people in America and in the world associate the word "marriage" with "a man and a woman as husband and wife", and understandably so." which, obviously, is quite different.

    So again, you simply exemplify a win-lose activist's rally perspective for your side, caring not whether what you say is true.

    In the latter quote listed here of mine, yes, I think a great majority of people in America do associate the word "marriage" with "a man and a woman as husband and wife". I also think a number of those people without a real dog in the fight are easily fooled/persuaded by activists' false rantings to change that association and redefine marriage.

    I advocate a win-win solution here, which can still occur.

    And, I am very concerned, what with the recent scientific revelations that sexual orientation has genetic precursors, the state of development of genetic-bioweapons, the ability to preventatively fight genetic "birth-defects" with "breakthoughs" in science-medicine .. that it's really best, nowadays, to create win-win solutions, espcially regarding highly emotionally charged matters as this one, without creating lingering animosity that could result in some eventual tragic "Dr. Mengele-ing" by the "losing" side .. especially if that losing side is large and has lots of money.

    Win-win is always best.

    Let's all find a way to do that.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

  8. #308
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    08-07-12 @ 12:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    216

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    Actually, it's you who's changing the goalposts.

    You previously complained about "much, much greater numbers", but that comes from the following statement I made: "So the leaders of the "gay marriage" movement have taken what they deem to be the shortcut of redfining marriage, the only real chance for success and success soon .. much to the "don't steal our tradition from us" objection of much, much greater numbers of people who don't want their institution of marriage sullied."

    Now you change the goalposts to my other statement: "I think that a great majority of people in America and in the world associate the word "marriage" with "a man and a woman as husband and wife", and understandably so." which, obviously, is quite different.

    So again, you simply exemplify a win-lose activist's rally perspective for your side, caring not whether what you say is true.

    In the latter quote listed here of mine, yes, I think a great majority of people in America do associate the word "marriage" with "a man and a woman as husband and wife". I also think a number of those people without a real dog in the fight are easily fooled/persuaded by activists' false rantings to change that association and redefine marriage.

    I advocate a win-win solution here, which can still occur.

    And, I am very concerned, what with the recent scientific revelations that sexual orientation has genetic precursors, the state of development of genetic-bioweapons, the ability to preventatively fight genetic "birth-defects" with "breakthoughs" in science-medicine .. that it's really best, nowadays, to create win-win solutions, espcially regarding highly emotionally charged matters as this one, without creating lingering animosity that could result in some eventual tragic "Dr. Mengele-ing" by the "losing" side .. especially if that losing side is large and has lots of money.

    Win-win is always best.

    Let's all find a way to do that.
    So when you're talking about "much, much greater numbers of people who don't want their institution of marriage sullied," you're referring exclusively to people who "hold the traditional institution of marriage valuable"? That was your great argument? That most people who believe in traditional marriage don't want traditional marriage to change? In that case, you're right and I was wrong. Your claim was merely a tautology, and I was stupid enough to assume you were making an assertion that was in anyway relevant to the SSM debate.

    I have a tautology of my own to waste everyone's time with: the vast majority of people who believe that gays should have marriage equality, also support SSM. Anyone care to challenge me on this?

    I have a feeling that the if the majority of people support SSM, as demonstrated by the polls I cited, then it isn't possible that the majority of Americans associate marriage with a man and a woman. We can argue semantics, but I don't think those two assertions are compatible, assuming that people who believe in marriage as between a man and a woman wouldn't support SSM, by definition.

    I'm concerned that what you think a win-win is not a win-win, because many people who want marriage to include same-sex couples want those marriages to be the same, de facto and de jure, as heterosexual marriages.
    Last edited by Miguel17; 08-06-12 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #309
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    08-07-12 @ 12:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    216

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    I believe Ontologuy answered your misperception of the matter perfectly. There are also people who were okay with SSM four years ago who now, seeing the will of their initiative results are actively frustrated, are now against. I know of many folks in California, who voted against Prop 8, but are very pissed off that their electoral process has been frustrated by federal courts. Again, these are people who normally don't have a dog in the hunt where it comes to SSM, but they do have a huge interest in seeing that initiatives that are passed by the people aren't ignored by the feds.
    Do you have some evidence to back up your assertion that a sizable portion of the voters have gone from supporting to opposing SSM? I mean, other than your anecdotal evidence? You can't say my scientific polls aren't valid as evidence, but we have to take your word as evidence, about the changing minds of anonymous "folks in California" that you know.

  10. #310
    Sage
    Navy Pride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Last Seen
    05-07-15 @ 02:01 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    39,883

    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    The undenialable fact is 33 states have amendments voted for by the people saying that marriage is between a man and a woman....Two more will be added in November......If SSM is so popular with the American people why is it the only way it can be approved is by activist judges?
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

Page 31 of 44 FirstFirst ... 21293031323341 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •