View Poll Results: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homophobe

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Thread: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homophobe

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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    All of those changes required either state law changes or constitutional amendments to cause them just as SSM does. SSM is now legal in 6 states and DC, yet curiously NOT in Rahm's home of "Chicago values". ;-)
    No, interracial marriage was not changed by either. It was changed by the SCOTUS.

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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel17 View Post
    No, interracial marriage was not changed by either. It was changed by the SCOTUS.
    Based on CONSTITUTIONAL amendments right? The SCOTUS can not NORMALLY just make stuff up, they must point to the Constitutition (or its amendments) as justification. Get real!
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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Based on CONSTITUTIONAL amendments right? The SCOTUS can not NORMALLY just make stuff up, they must point to the Constitutition (or its amendments) as justification. Get real!
    Yeah, I thought you meant that it was the constitutional amendment that changed the law. But it's good to point out the 14th, because that's the same amendment that provides the constitutional framework for SSM.

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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    I think that a great majority of people in America and in the world associate the word "marriage" with "a man and a woman as husband and wife", and understandably so.

    I don't think, however, that most of them have a problem with homosexuals having committed relationships and receiving equal socioeconomic and geopolitical treatment under the law with regard to their relationship with the state.

    I do think, however, that a majority of these people have a problem with the word "marriage" being misused out of context of the long-established traditional humanity instutitution framework.

    Thus if the "gay marriage" movement simply changed their terminology, calling their civil union domestic partnership "homarriage" instead of "marriage", the great majority of so-called "traditional marriage" supporters would be happy.

    However, the problem with this is that it's easier said than done, as the reason the "gay marriage" movement exists is that all they would have to do to get that equal socioeconomic and geopolitical treatment under the law with regard to their relationship with the state, their real bottom line issue, is to successfully redefine the word marriage in the eyes of the state, whereas creating a new-termed "homarriage" civil union domestic partnership in all 50 states and whatever else federal requirements too, well, that could take scores of years to do.

    And it would take scores of years to do because really only around two percent, according to a recent study posted here at DP earlier this year, I think it was, two percent of the population is exclusively homosexual to the "gay/lesbian" degree that they would even consider marriage, and thus the cause undertaken "properly" would fail like an "orphaned drug", lacking the necessary massive support for success.

    So the leaders of the "gay marriage" movement have taken what they deem to be the shortcut of redfining marriage, the only real chance for success and success soon .. much to the "don't steal our tradition from us" objection of much, much greater numbers of people who don't want their institution of marriage sullied.

    I have no idea how this problem will get resolved so that both sides are happy and non-damaged in the process.

    But each side would do well not to instill animosity in the other regardless of the outcome.

    If there was some way for both sides to get together and make a concerted effort to achieve what both sides really want, I doubt there would be any legislative force that would stand in their way from accomplishing their goal very soon.
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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    I think that a great majority of people in America and in the world associate the word "marriage" with "a man and a woman as husband and wife", and understandably so.

    I don't think, however, that most of them have a problem with homosexuals having committed relationships and receiving equal socioeconomic and geopolitical treatment under the law with regard to their relationship with the state.

    I do think, however, that a majority of these people have a problem with the word "marriage" being misused out of context of the long-established traditional humanity instutitution framework.

    Thus if the "gay marriage" movement simply changed their terminology, calling their civil union domestic partnership "homarriage" instead of "marriage", the great majority of so-called "traditional marriage" supporters would be happy.

    However, the problem with this is that it's easier said than done, as the reason the "gay marriage" movement exists is that all they would have to do to get that equal socioeconomic and geopolitical treatment under the law with regard to their relationship with the state, their real bottom line issue, is to successfully redefine the word marriage in the eyes of the state, whereas creating a new-termed "homarriage" civil union domestic partnership in all 50 states and whatever else federal requirements too, well, that could take scores of years to do.

    And it would take scores of years to do because really only around two percent, according to a recent study posted here at DP earlier this year, I think it was, two percent of the population is exclusively homosexual to the "gay/lesbian" degree that they would even consider marriage, and thus the cause undertaken "properly" would fail like an "orphaned drug", lacking the necessary massive support for success.

    So the leaders of the "gay marriage" movement have taken what they deem to be the shortcut of redfining marriage, the only real chance for success and success soon .. much to the "don't steal our tradition from us" objection of much, much greater numbers of people who don't want their institution of marriage sullied.

    I have no idea how this problem will get resolved so that both sides are happy and non-damaged in the process.

    But each side would do well not to instill animosity in the other regardless of the outcome.

    If there was some way for both sides to get together and make a concerted effort to achieve what both sides really want, I doubt there would be any legislative force that would stand in their way from accomplishing their goal very soon.
    But polls have demonstrated time and again that the majority of Americans now support SSM, without any qualifier, and without calling it "homarriage" or using any other neologisms. I think it's demonstrably clear that most Americans aren't worried about their "tradition" being stolen, or the institution of marriage being sullied (how would it be sullied, anyways? SSM wouldn't effect heterosexuals at all).

    The fact that support for SSM has been rising so rapidly, and in the same direction shows that time is on the side of SSM advocates. The culture is changing, and supporters may not have to change the law before the culture supports it (like with interracial marriage or minority civil rights). Within another decade or two, I'm sure that there will be such a clamoring of support for equality that it may even be accomplished by state referendums.

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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    I think that a great majority of people in America and in the world associate the word "marriage" with "a man and a woman as husband and wife", and understandably so.

    I don't think, however, that most of them have a problem with homosexuals having committed relationships and receiving equal socioeconomic and geopolitical treatment under the law with regard to their relationship with the state.

    I do think, however, that a majority of these people have a problem with the word "marriage" being misused out of context of the long-established traditional humanity instutitution framework.

    Thus if the "gay marriage" movement simply changed their terminology, calling their civil union domestic partnership "homarriage" instead of "marriage", the great majority of so-called "traditional marriage" supporters would be happy.

    However, the problem with this is that it's easier said than done, as the reason the "gay marriage" movement exists is that all they would have to do to get that equal socioeconomic and geopolitical treatment under the law with regard to their relationship with the state, their real bottom line issue, is to successfully redefine the word marriage in the eyes of the state, whereas creating a new-termed "homarriage" civil union domestic partnership in all 50 states and whatever else federal requirements too, well, that could take scores of years to do.

    And it would take scores of years to do because really only around two percent, according to a recent study posted here at DP earlier this year, I think it was, two percent of the population is exclusively homosexual to the "gay/lesbian" degree that they would even consider marriage, and thus the cause undertaken "properly" would fail like an "orphaned drug", lacking the necessary massive support for success.

    So the leaders of the "gay marriage" movement have taken what they deem to be the shortcut of redfining marriage, the only real chance for success and success soon .. much to the "don't steal our tradition from us" objection of much, much greater numbers of people who don't want their institution of marriage sullied.

    I have no idea how this problem will get resolved so that both sides are happy and non-damaged in the process.

    But each side would do well not to instill animosity in the other regardless of the outcome.

    If there was some way for both sides to get together and make a concerted effort to achieve what both sides really want, I doubt there would be any legislative force that would stand in their way from accomplishing their goal very soon.
    You know what? Some do think that. Too bad. The two arguments are not equal. No group has some exclusive right to define marriage. Marriage is not a word religious people own. This isn't an argument over WORDS, it's an argument over RIGHTS. In what ridiculous universe does the right to a definition supercede individual liberty?
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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Also, we've had that "separate but equal" discussion in this country before. Using a separate term leaves an inherent impression that the minority group is inferior, because they don't get to be part of the majority. Not an option.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Also, we've had that "separate but equal" discussion in this country before. Using a separate term leaves an inherent impression that the minority group is inferior, because they don't get to be part of the majority. Not an option.
    Marriage isn't really "marriage" anymore. Today, it's little more than a legal agreement. People really should stop calling it "marriage" altogether.
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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel17 View Post
    But polls have demonstrated time and again that the majority of Americans now support SSM, without any qualifier, and without calling it "homarriage" or using any other neologisms. I think it's demonstrably clear that most Americans aren't worried about their "tradition" being stolen, or the institution of marriage being sullied (how would it be sullied, anyways? SSM wouldn't effect heterosexuals at all).

    The fact that support for SSM has been rising so rapidly, and in the same direction shows that time is on the side of SSM advocates. The culture is changing, and supporters may not have to change the law before the culture supports it (like with interracial marriage or minority civil rights). Within another decade or two, I'm sure that there will be such a clamoring of support for equality that it may even be accomplished by state referendums.
    I presented the actuals of the matter .. and you respond with an activist's specious rally points exemplified by your lack of any attempt to understand the valid perspective of your opponents.

    Seriously, it would be well with both sides if they not continue to engender animosity in the other, and work together to accomplish the real goals of each.
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    Re: If a man states I favor tradiional marriage does that make him a bigot or a homop

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    I presented the actuals of the matter .. and you respond with an activist's specious rally points exemplified by your lack of any attempt to understand the valid perspective of your opponents.

    Seriously, it would be well with both sides if they not continue to engender animosity in the other, and work together to accomplish the real goals of each.
    Your "actuals" included the assertion that opponents of SSM are "much, much greater" in number than proponents of it. That's a demonstrably false assertion.

    Half of Americans Support Legal Gay Marriage
    Majority of Americans support legalizing same-sex marriage, poll shows | The Ticket - Yahoo! News
    New Poll: Americans Increase Support Of Marriage Equality to 54%
    After President Obama’s announcement, opposition to gay marriage hits record low - The Washington Post
    http://www.langerresearch.com/upload...ayMarriage.pdf
    USA TODAY/Gallup poll: 51% agree with Obama's gay marriage endorsement

    How is stating a statistically verified fact a specious rally point?

    I would try to understand the valid perspective of people who want to stop something that won't affect them in anyway, and for which they have no rational or logical reason to oppose it.

    And while I'm not a philosopher or anything, I would wager that people who want marriage to include same-sex couples, and those who do not, might not have mutually achievable goals.

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