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Which right holds sway?

Which right holds sway?

  • 2nd Amendment

    Votes: 15 21.7%
  • Property Rights

    Votes: 54 78.3%

  • Total voters
    69
A private business is private property!
Not all private property is the same. Privately owned does not mean privately controlled, as is the case with publicly traded corporations. Residences are not subject to OSHA, Public Accommodation, Equal-Opportunity Employment or a host of other regulations which private businesses are.

And thay can call the police and have you escorted off the property and get a restraining order in a heartbeat to keep you and your gun from coming back.

In Florida, my earlier example, if you kick someone out of your business simply for lawfully carrying a firearm, YOU will be in legal trouble, not the person with the gun. Every state is different. In TX and OH ignoring a gun-buster sign is criminal trespassing, while in SD and CO it's not, you couldn't even get a restraining order for it. In OR you can carry even into post offices, police stations and all school grounds.

So check with your local laws because there is no national standard.
 
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Not all private property is the same. Privately owned does not mean privately controlled, as is the case with publicly traded corporations. Residences are not subject to OSHA, Public Accommodation, Equal-Opportunity Employment or a host of other regulations which private businesses are.



In Florida, my earlier example, if you kick someone out simply for lawfully carrying a firearm, YOU will be in legal trouble, not the person with the gun. Every state is different. In TX, it's criminal trespassing, in SD, it's not, you couldn't even get a restraining order for it. So check with your local laws because there is no national standard.

Okay; you walk into the Empire State building wearing a gun and watch what happens.
 
Okay; you walk into the Empire State building wearing a gun and watch what happens.
I'm not a resident of NY, so I'm not allowed to own or posses a firearm in that state at all. Only law enforcement, military and certain individuals who can demonstrate "proper cause" may actually carry a firearm on their person anywhere in the state of NY, private property or otherwise.

To contrast: in my state, you can carry a firearm openly just about anywhere, and this is perfectly legal. No permit required.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/
 
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I'm not a resident of NY, so I'm not allowed to own or posses a firearm in that state at all. Only law enforcement, military and certain individuals who can demonstrate "proper cause" may actually carry a firearm on their person anywhere in the state of NY, private property or otherwise.

To contrast: in my state, you can carry a firearm openly just about anywhere, and this is perfectly legal. No permit required.

Handgunlaw.us

Uh, Jerry? I'm not arguing the legality of carrying a weapon. I'm saying that, if a private property owner in any state says that you can't bring a gun onto the property: then you can't bring a gun onto the property - period.
 
Uh, Jerry? I'm not arguing the legality of carrying a weapon. I'm saying that, if a private property owner in any state says that you can't bring a gun onto the property: then you can't bring a gun onto the property - period.
That's not true. Check with your local laws.

In Florida, my earlier example, if the owner says I can't bring a gun onto their property, the owner is braking the law and I will be allowed to carry against their will.

In many states where gun-buster signs are not backed by the law, if the owner doesn't spot a concealed firearm, they can't do anything about it. It's not illegal.

Additionally, many states protect the employee's right to store a firearm in their car. You can scream and cry all day but you still can't stop the employee from bringing the firearm onto your property while stored in their car. Yes, it's you're private property, your name on the deed/title, and they can still bring a gun against your expressed objection.
 
Permission was given when you unlocked the front door and turned on the "open" sign. It's then up to you to rescind that permission individually. If you tell me to leave because I'm carrying in your store, then I interpret that as a fault on my part for not concealing properly.
And if you are hiding a gun on your body and were not even smart enough to tell me how am I suppose to know that you are not a criminal? Many robberies involve a concealed weapon of some sort then when they feel brave enough out it comes and its pointed at the clerk or store owner. One way to instantly know that the person with the bulge is up to no good is to ban guns on the property in the first place. Then the clerk can respond right away with their gun. Instead of wasting time wondering if you have a permit or if you intend to use that gun for no good.

In Florida, for example, gun-buster signs are illegal. You, as the business owner, are not permitted to ban lawfully carried firearms from your property when that property is open to the public. You can be fined for trying.

The reason behind the law is that only the State has the authority to ban firearms from publicly accessible places.

A business owner can still require that all such firearms be concealed, however, just as they can require shoes and shirt.
Well I am not in Florida. I am instead in New Mexico where I can tell you to leave if I saw you as a threat. Which since you are running around being sneaky about carrying a gun like some under hand coward I would make you leave just out of principle.

Uh, no. I don't even see how you could infer that. Only the state has the authority to ban firearms because only the state can execute Due Process, which is required in order to properly infringe.

Really and how come you cannot come into my house with a gun if I do not want you too? Im not talking presumed public property in this case I am talking real private property. I dont care what state you are talking about the the private property owner or the person in control of private property can tell you for any reason to leave. The only part the state plays in is that police must obey the home owners wishes.

Which shows that there are legal situations that go against what you are claiming. In fact if I want you to leave my house I can even legally use racial discrimination. Not that I ever would but if I wanted to I could.
 
That's not true. Check with your local laws.

In Florida, my earlier example, if the owner says I can't bring a gun onto their property, the owner is braking the law and I will be allowed to carry against their will.

In many states where gun-buster signs are not backed by the law, if the owner doesn't spot a concealed firearm, they can't do anything about it. It's not illegal.

Additionally, many states protect the employee's right to store a firearm in their car. You can scream and cry all day but you still can't stop the employee from bringing the firearm onto your property while stored in their car. Yes, it's you're private property, your name on the deed/title, and they can still bring a gun against your expressed objection.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. If a company who owns their own property says that you can't solicit, the you can't solicit.
 
And if you are hiding a gun on your body and were not even smart enough to tell me how am I suppose to know that you are not a criminal?
I would be more than happy to present my CCW on-demand. If I were a criminal, I couldn't have a permit, and so then you would know.

Well I am not in Florida. I am instead in New Mexico where I can tell you to leave if I saw you as a threat. Which since you are running around being sneaky about carrying a gun like some under hand coward I would make you leave just out of principle.
Gotta catch me first :) Good hunting.

Really and how come you cannot come into my house with a gun if I do not want you too?

It's a private residence, not a business open to the public.

Im not talking presumed public property in this case I am talking real private property. I dont care what state you are talking about the the private property owner or the person in control of private property can tell you for any reason to leave. The only part the state plays in is that police must obey the home owners wishes.
A residence, yes, a business open to the public, not so much

Which shows that there are legal situations that go against what you are claiming. In fact if I want you to leave my house I can even legally use racial discrimination. Not that I ever would but if I wanted to I could.
A residence, yes, a business open to the public, no way.
 
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. If a company who owns their own property says that you can't solicit, the you can't solicit.
Indeed, but we're not talking about solicitation. Check the link I provided, pick a state, it will give you a run-down on that state's laws. Look for the section on "Do no-gun signs carry the force of law". Many states are different.
 
Indeed, but we're not talking about solicitation. Check the link I provided, pick a state, it will give you a run-down on that state's laws. Look for the section on "Do no-gun signs carry the force of law". Many states are different.

Okay; you name the states that have laws that say you can carry a gun onto private poperty against the owner's will. And quote the laws.

That should be a snap for you.
 
Okay; you name the states that have laws that say you can carry a gun onto private poperty against the owner's will. And quote the laws.

That should be a snap for you.
I've been using Florida as an example. Here's the law:

(4) PROHIBITED ACTS.--No public or private employer may violate the constitutional rights of any
customer, employee, or invitee as provided in paragraphs (a)-(e):


(a) No public or private employer may prohibit any customer, employee, or invitee from possessing
any legally owned firearm when such firearm is lawfully possessed and locked inside or locked to a
private motor vehicle in a parking lot and when the customer, employee, or invitee is lawfully in such
area.


(b) No public or private employer may violate the privacy rights of a customer, employee, or invitee
by verbal or written inquiry regarding the presence of a firearm inside or locked to a private motor
vehicle in a parking lot or by an actual search of a private motor vehicle in a parking lot to ascertain
the presence of a firearm within the vehicle. Further, no public or private employer may take any
action against a customer, employee, or invitee based upon verbal or written statements of any party
concerning possession of a firearm stored inside a private motor vehicle in a parking lot for lawful
purposes. A search of a private motor vehicle in the parking lot of a public or private employer to
ascertain the presence of a firearm within the vehicle may only be conducted by on-duty law
enforcement personnel, based upon due process and must comply with constitutional protections.

(c) No public or private employer shall condition employment upon either:
1. The fact that an employee or prospective employee holds or does not hold a license issued
pursuant to s. 790.06; or
2. Any agreement by an employee or a prospective employee that prohibits an employee
from keeping a legal firearm locked inside or locked to a private motor vehicle in a parking
lot when such firearm is kept for lawful purposes.


(d) No public or private employer shall prohibit or attempt to prevent any customer, employee, or
invitee from entering the parking lot of the employer's place of business because the customer's,
employee's, or invitee's private motor vehicle contains a legal firearm being carried for lawful
purposes, that is out of sight within the customer's, employee's, or invitee's private motor vehicle.


(e) No public or private employer may terminate the employment of or otherwise discriminate
against an employee, or expel a customer or invitee for exercising his or her constitutional right to
keep and bear arms or for exercising the right of self-defense as long as a firearm is never exhibited
on company property for any reason other than lawful defensive purposes.


This subsection applies to all public sector employers, including those already prohibited from
regulating firearms under the provisions of s. 790.33.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/florida.pdf
 
Okay; you name the states that have laws that say you can carry a gun onto private poperty against the owner's will. And quote the laws.

That should be a snap for you.
Good morning. Here's more supporting Florida law:

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

790.33 Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.—(1) PREEMPTION.—Except as expressly provided by the State Constitution or general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, storage, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or any administrative regulations or rules adopted by local or state government relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances, rules, or regulations are hereby declared null and void.

~snip~

(c) If the court determines that a violation was knowing and willful, the court shall assess a civil fine of up to $5,000 against the elected or appointed local government official or officials or administrative agency head under whose jurisdiction the violation occurred.

~snip~



In Flordia, if you own a private business, and you so much as post a gun-buster sign, you will fined up to $5,000. Every customer you turn away, every employee you fire, will also result in a $5,000 fine, each.

This should be the standard for all states. No private business should be allowed to ban lawful carry without a very good reason and special permission from the state.
 
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Property rights have to win out here, remember corporations are legal people and that is thier private property, and I know I can tell you to leave my house if I don't want you there with a gun.

Even if you buy the IMO suspect idea that the second amendment is two clauses, one for militas and the other giving you the right to keep and bare arms, it is already clear that there are limits on the arms you are allowed to have, therefor it only makes sense there would be limits with respect to property, after all I cannot goto bank of America's lobby and give a speech under my right to free speech, they would tell me it is private property and if I have no business there to leave and it would be legal.
 
I would be more than happy to present my CCW on-demand. If I were a criminal, I couldn't have a permit, and so then you would know.


Gotta catch me first :) Good hunting.
Then I will install a metal detector. :) Oh and only criminals with with a criminal record cannot have a permit. ANd you completely ignored my point about policing and safety. If I have a store in a bad neighborhood where it is higher probability that the person carrying a concealed weapon is doing so illegally, by banning all guns in my store I can then safely assume that someone with a gun is a threat and act accordingly.




It's a private residence, not a business open to the public.


A residence, yes, a business open to the public, not so much


A residence, yes, a business open to the public, no way.

"Only the state has the authority to ban firearms because only the state can execute Due Process, which is required in order to properly infringe." So a private citizen can execute "Due Process" at their residence? And as I have stated to you many times before, not all business have presumed public property. Your argument only holds for public property and can not go any further than public property.


When all is said and done this is where the issue stands. Individual rights vs individual rights. Each individual has the civil right to bear arms (unless you committed a felony then your disfranchised).
But the right to bear arms has its limits. For example you may not just waltz into someones house carrying a gun without the permission of the person in control of the house. The reason that you need permission to go into someone elses house with a gun is because private property rights trumps the invitees civil right to bear arms on that private property. Just the same freedom of speech has no power within a private property of someone elses house.

I am now talking about an individuals home instead of a business to raise a point. The fact that certain rights can be voided by a person being invited into someone elses home shows that private property rights are above other rights. The effect is that you have the right to bear arms just not on someones elses property. The proof of that reality is the fact that the NRA needs laws to force property owners to allow someone to bear arms on their property. Its a very slippery slope when you start enacting laws that take away the rights of property owners. And quit honestly I do not trust the NRA and you are a good example why. Since you keep bragging about sneaking guns into places that even the law agrees that you shouldnt even with a permit to carry a concealed weapon. It shows dishonestly in tune with criminal mind. If you are willing to sneak a gun into places the law does not allow what else will you do? It goes back to the basics of gun safety and the rights of other people than yourself. I suspect that eventually you will get caught with you gun in the wrong place and then you will lose the right to carry a concealed weapon. Because you see there are people that are hunting for someone like you to make an example out of. And their intentions are to use you as fodder to gain support for gun control legislation.
 
Then I will install a metal detector.
And every single person who walks through will set it off. Belt buckles, steel thanks and toes, wallets, keys, cell phones, coins...good luck operating a buisness that way.
 
And every single person who walks through will set it off. Belt buckles, steel thanks and toes, wallets, keys, cell phones, coins...good luck operating a buisness that way.

Very true indeed. But in the end it is not your choice on how an owner runs their store. I know that people like to believe that they can tell other people what to do but you did not build the store the owner did. you as a patron are not the main target in reality the clerks or whoever is in charge of the money are the targets. To them anyone with a gun in the store is someone to be feared since they have a target hanging on their heads.
 
Very true indeed. But in the end it is not your choice on how an owner runs their buisness
Sure it is....you''ll realize that when no one comes into your store after you try to search every customer, and when we pass legislation forcing you to comply.
 
Sure it is....you''ll realize that when no one comes into your store after you try to search every customer, and when we pass legislation forcing you to comply.
Thanx that was my point that the NRA is not concerned with Liberties or Freedoms. Again as a gun owner it troubles me to here anyone mention legislation forcing Americans to comply against their rights as they stand now. The hedging of our rights is not the right direction for this country to take.


WHy not just site the Constitution since there the 2nd Amendment exists? The Constitution protects our right to bear arms there is no need to go beyond that concept. What you are doing by forcing laws on Americans is telling them **** you I have a gun and will crush your rights in order to feel safe. The problem is that you have no business that has property that you need to protect, so therefore its no sweat off of your balls to shove laws down business owners throats that do have property that they need to protect. Have you never worked in a store all day before? Have you not seen the screw ups that come into stores? Not everyone with a gun is safe to be around.


BTW duly noted on your insistence to ignore the meat of my posts. WHich is ssad because most of the time I already answered your questions in the very posts that you quote.
 
The hedging of our rights is not the right direction for this country to take.

That's why private people should not be allowed to infringe on the rights of others who aren't harming anyone.
 
It probably has something to do with knowing what the sentence you wrote would actually mean.
Take responsibility for your own errors for once. You didn't understand, that's not on me. It's pretty ****ing obvious that the 2A is not a state right. You didn't know that, you got yourself lost, not my problem.
 
Take responsibility for your own errors for once. You didn't understand, that's not on me. It's pretty ****ing obvious that the 2A is not a state right. You didn't know that, you got yourself lost, not my problem.

It's also pretty obvious that we're not talking about the 2nd amendment, we're talking about policies which limit the ability to carry weapons in certain places. It's not my fault you didn't understand what you were saying. :shrug:
 
It's also pretty obvious that we're not talking about the 2nd amendment, we're talking about policies which limit the ability to carry weapons in certain places. It's not my fault you didn't understand what you were saying. :shrug:
You're the only one who had a comprehension problem. Was it the colored text I used? Now why don't you make one of your lame off-color jokes, we'll all pretend you're funny and you can go to bed feeling like you saved teh interwebz. Go ahead, I'll wait.
 
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You're the only one who had a comprehension problem. Was it the colored text I used? Now why don't you make one of your lame off-color jokes, we'll all pretend you're funny and you can go to bed feeling like you saved teh interwebz. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Are you really under the delusional idea that that sentence meant something other than what the words it contained mean?
 
That's why private people should not be allowed to infringe on the rights of others who aren't harming anyone.

The difference here being that not all privately owned businesses actually ban guns. And for those that do not ban guns outright the laws in Florida ban the the business owners from the right to defend their property as they see fit. That would be a good example of the State of Florida dictating to their citizens what they can and cannot do in regards to their own personal safety, the safety of their employees, customers, invitees, and their property. Or like I said a hedging of rights. Without the laws that you have shown us in Florida no gun owner is banned form owning a gun nor to their right to bear arms. What the law will force property owners to do is to find loopholes to exploit.

I have noticed that on several occasions you have used a link to Handgunlaw.us Which I assume that you are in agreement with their advice otherwise why else would you repeatably link us to their site?


“Handgunlaw.us highly recommends that you not enter a place that is posted "No Firearms" no matter what the state laws read/mean on signage. We recommend you print out the No Guns = No Money Cards and give one to the owner of the establishment that has the signage." As responsible gun owners and upholders of the 2nd Amendment we should also honor the rights of property owners to control their own property even if we disagree with them.

“No Firearm” signs in Florida have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law.”
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/florida.pdf

To avoid over reaching laws that the NRA has been pivotal in getting enacted a business owner only needs to wish you to leave the property, they need not give a reason why. If they did mention a gun in the state of Florida then the legal CCW gun owner could file a civil suit. But none the less by law when asked to leave you must leave or you will be charged with a crime which would be a separate case from the civil suit. The gun owner could possibly (in Florida) win the civil suit but not the criminal case. You might be offered a plea deal though where you could avoid being convicted in a criminal case and possibly jeopardizing your CCW permit next time around. In other words you may have the legal right but not be able to enjoy that legal right to its fullest because of the fact that current concealed weapons laws require the permittee to qualify for their 2nd Amendment rights. These qualifications are the handy work of the NRA. The idea of qualifications makes one wonder how a Constitutional right needs qualifications? Do we need qualifications for the right to free speech? How about other Constitutional rights, should they only be allowed with certain qualifications? How can a Constitutional right require a test?
 
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