Which right holds sway?

Tucker Case said:

No, there'd be no expectation to reveal your martial arts training for exactly the reason you give at the end of your post. You can't leave it in your car.

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So, black-belt/Army-Combative is ok...but small pistol is a no-go....and the key distinctions between the two are range, and the ability to leave it elsewhere.

Close-range and can't put it down makes it acceptable, range and the ability to leave it in the car makes it unacceptable....at least unacceptable to keep private.

Is that about right?

Jerry said:

So, black-belt/Army-Combative is ok...but small pistol is a no-go....and the key distinctions between the two are range, and the ability to leave it elsewhere.

Close-range and can't put it down makes it acceptable, range and the ability to leave it in the car makes it unacceptable....at least unacceptable to keep private.

Is that about right?

Click to expand...

Close. Martial arts and other combat skills that you are capable of are an innate part of you, rather than simply being a tool which you can use. If you are invited into a home, all of you is invited.

Tools that you bring into someone's home to perform a specific task that they have asked you to perform are also naturally going to be acceptable.

But tools that serve no purpose other than to maim and kill, which you bring into another person's hope without permission, are unacceptable.

Tucker Case said:

Close. Martial arts and other combat skills that you are capable of are an innate part of you, rather than simply being a tool which you can use. If you are invited into a home, all of you is invited.

Tools that you bring into someone's home to perform a specific task that they have asked you to perform are also naturally going to be acceptable.

But tools that serve no purpose other than to maim and kill, which you bring into another person's hope without permission, are unacceptable.

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Wow...Im not getting all the angst over the statement....If someone does not want you to bring your firearm in their home...you have two choices...dont bring it in their home or stay out of their home.....Is that a wild and farfetched statement or something ?

lpast said:

Is that a wild and farfetched statement or something ?

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Not to me. I look at things as "Their home, their rules." I wouldn't sneak alcohol into someone's home, either, for the same reasons.

Tucker Case said:

Not to me. I look at things as "Their home, their rules." I wouldn't sneak alcohol into someone's home, either, for the same reasons.

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I agree tuck...I am a gun ownership advocate...but I stand by my home is my castle and you DO NOT do in my home what I dont want you to...so what would make me think that I could do in YOUR home whatever I wanted....I was flabbergasted by the response to my statment to be honest

Jerry said:

How can you trust the work we're doing, then?


Isn't that the entire point of carrying concealed?



Me: "Hi, my name is Jerry, this is Bob, we're with Zombie Fortress General Contractors here to work on your secret underground Nazi-super-science genetic lab and massage parlor."

You: "Would you mind if I see your IDs, please?"

Me: "Absolutely" *hands you driver's license* "Please feel free to contact my boss and verify our work permit. Would you mind if we set up in your drive way meanwhile?"


Even in castle doctrine states, you can't just pull a gun like that. I would have to be trespassing, which I wouldn't be, and I would have to be committing a felony while trespassing, which I wouldn't be. If you aren't in a castle doctrine state, then I would have to be committing a "forcible felony" and/or immediately threatening someone's life, which I wouldn't be.

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I don’t care if you have a permit from the government to carry a concealed weapon. When you step onto MY property you better get MY permission to carry that weapon or I WILL take you down.

The police may not charge you with a crime but they will take you off of my property, than tell you not to come back.

P.S. breaking MY gun laws on MY property might just get you shot.

Law enforcement cannot just do whatever they want on private property either. In fact you can deny them entry onto the property altogether and they will need a warrant from a judge to come back. That is unless they observed you breaking a law of some sort. But still they do not have the freedom to do whatever they want.

If I can turn the police away I can turn a regular citizen away as well. Just because you have a concealed weapons permit does not give you special rights that are above my rights as a property owner.


If I hire you to do something on my property, it means that I invited you onto my property. This also means that I can uninvite you at my discretion. If you brought a firearm with you and did not believe that you needed permission you were naively mistaken. I already showed you that by law in New Mexico I can tell you to leave and the only thing that you can do from there is leave. And if you do not leave I will assume that you are a threat. In that case I will secure my property as I see fit while I wait for the police to come and take you away. And that time you will be banned from my property. Next I would call your employer and tell them that you are never allowed on my property again. After I explain to them that you had a gun and refused to leave my property.

Gun owners like yourself make it hard on the rest of us gun owners. You speak of training with firearms but several times you have expressed the need to protect yourself for wild dogs and that you even shot some. And you even said that you have pulled a gun on people. Im sure that it was all legal and justified (thats not sarcasm) but heres the problem you seem to think that you have the right to shoot anyone you want in self defense and even worse you want the right to do it on my property. That goes beyond just carrying a holstered weapon. You are actually saying that you have done it before and intend to do it again wherever you want.

SO I must assume that all people carrying guns may be like you, for my own safety and the safety of others. This doesnt bide well with me since I believe that there are many responsible gun owners in this country. But the reality is that not all gun owners are responsible. ANd because of that fact I need to have the right to decide if I want a gun owner on my property with a gun and if it is a safe thing to do. With out that right I am powerless to protect myself my workers my family and friends and my property.

Another thing is that once you have a law saying where you can take a gun you will be forced to accept that there are places where it may be illegal to to take a gun. Once that door is opened its a open road to oblivion. The end result perhaps could be laws governing whether you can even own a gun since you live in X area.

comedy4all said:

I don’t care if you have a permit from the government to carry a concealed weapon. When you step onto MY property you better get MY permission to carry that weapon or I WILL take you down.

The police may not charge you with a crime but they will take you off of my property, than tell you not to come back.

P.S. breaking MY gun laws on MY property might just get you shot.

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Ok there e-thug, calm down, it's the internet, no one's impressed.

So how about those questions? Care to answer them?

FreedomFromAll said:

Law enforcement cannot just do whatever they want on private property either. In fact you can deny them entry onto the property altogether and they will need a warrant from a judge to come back. That is unless they observed you breaking a law of some sort. But still they do not have the freedom to do whatever they want.

If I can turn the police away I can turn a regular citizen away as well. Just because you have a concealed weapons permit does not give you special rights that are above my rights as a property owner.


If I hire you to do something on my property, it means that I invited you onto my property. This also means that I can uninvite you at my discretion. If you brought a firearm with you and did not believe that you needed permission you were naively mistaken. I already showed you that by law in New Mexico I can tell you to leave and the only thing that you can do from there is leave. And if you do not leave I will assume that you are a threat. In that case I will secure my property as I see fit while I wait for the police to come and take you away. And that time you will be banned from my property. Next I would call your employer and tell them that you are never allowed on my property again. After I explain to them that you had a gun and refused to leave my property.

Gun owners like yourself make it hard on the rest of us gun owners. You speak of training with firearms but several times you have expressed the need to protect yourself for wild dogs and that you even shot some. And you even said that you have pulled a gun on people. Im sure that it was all legal and justified (thats not sarcasm) but heres the problem you seem to think that you have the right to shoot anyone you want in self defense and even worse you want the right to do it on my property. That goes beyond just carrying a holstered weapon. You are actually saying that you have done it before and intend to do it again wherever you want.

SO I must assume that all people carrying guns may be like you, for my own safety and the safety of others. This doesnt bide well with me since I believe that there are many responsible gun owners in this country. But the reality is that not all gun owners are responsible. ANd because of that fact I need to have the right to decide if I want a gun owner on my property with a gun and if it is a safe thing to do. With out that right I am powerless to protect myself my workers my family and friends and my property.

Another thing is that once you have a law saying where you can take a gun you will be forced to accept that there are places where it may be illegal to to take a gun. Once that door is opened its a open road to oblivion. The end result perhaps could be laws governing whether you can even own a gun since you live in X area.

Click to expand...

Um, excuse me, but of the people participating in this thread, I'm not one of the 2 threatening to shoot someone only because I didn't know they had a gun.

Kindly take a look in the mirror.

Talking to Tucker has made me re-think my position. I find myself more agreeable to the other side. However, talking to you and comedy4all only further polarize my view. You should look at his posts and take a lesson.

IMO this is the crux of the divide: If you don't care about my constitutional right, why should I care abut yours? In other words, if you believe you should be able to arbitrarily suspend my right, why can't others arbitrarily suspend your right?

Tucker Case said:

Not to me. I look at things as "Their home, their rules." I wouldn't sneak alcohol into someone's home, either, for the same reasons.

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I'm sorry you think it's seeking. I don't know how to better articulate the difference between privacy and discretion, and underhanded sneaking. Concealed carry isn't inherently devious.

Jerry said:

Ok there e-thug, calm down, it's the internet, no one's impressed.

So how about those questions? Care to answer them?

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I don’t have much to do today so w will explain things to you in the long version.

I know that you hold your views that you should be able to carry a gun anywhere that you please without informing the property owner that you are doing so. I have no doubt that I will not sway these beliefs at all, I am simply stating the reality of the situation from my perspective.

As for “How can you trust the work we're doing, then?”
I can trust your employer/company. The fact that I let you onto my property and into my house does not mean that I trust you explicitly in all things; it means that I trust that you will do your job and nothing else. My father took my sister’s boyfriend to help him build a deck for a church friend. During the build my sister’s boyfriend took a credit card that had just arrived in the mail and used it. Those people trusted my father, and were disrespected by my sister’s boyfriend. The point is that you do not automatically trust those that come to your house, they must earn it.

As for “Isn't that the entire point of carrying concealed?”
As I stated in my previous post I don’t care if you got permission from the government to carry a concealed weapon, if you come onto my property you better get my permission. If you do not get my permission to carry a weapon on my property I will react to you carrying a weapon on my property as a hostile act.

As for “Me: "Hi, my name is Jerry, this is Bob, we're with Zombie Fortress General Contractors here to work on your secret underground Nazi-super-science genetic lab and massage parlor."

You: "Would you mind if I see your IDs, please?"

Me: "Absolutely" *hands you driver's license* "Please feel free to contact my boss and verify our work permit. Would you mind if we set up in your drive way meanwhile?"
Carpentry does not require the use of a gun that does not fire nails. A concealed gun is at best a hazard that I am not aware of, at worst a threat to the lives of me and my family. I doubt that this was stipulated in my contract with your employer.
Also from your previous posts you stated that “Breaking the rules has nothing to do with disrespect, either”. This means that there are people out there like you that don’t care about boundaries. People like that are unpredictable so I must always be looking out for those that would “break the rules”.


As for “Even in castle doctrine states, you can't just pull a gun like that. I would have to be trespassing, which I wouldn't be, and I would have to be committing a felony while trespassing, which I wouldn't be. If you aren't in a castle doctrine state, then I would have to be committing a "forcible felony" and/or immediately threatening someone's life, which I wouldn't be”.
As I stated before I don’t care if you have a permit from the government to carry a concealed weapon. When you step onto MY property you better get MY permission to carry that weapon or I WILL take you down.

The police may not charge you with a crime but they will take you off of my property, than tell you not to come back.

P.S. breaking MY gun laws on MY property might just get you shot.

I hope this clears thing up for you. Yes you have the right to protect yourself but so do i.

Jerry said:

IMO this is the crux of the divide: If you don't care about my constitutional right, why should I care abut yours? In other words, if you believe you should be able to arbitrarily suspend my right, why can't others arbitrarily suspend your right?

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The key part of this issue is that it is the property owners liberty to allow you to be an invitee on to his property. No matter what you do you are not promised to be an invitee on someone elses property. So therefore your rights are not the issue the property owners rights are the issue since your wants in your opinion are above the actual property owners rights.

More tough-guy talk. Not impressive, certainly not rational. You didn't clarify anything other than your temper and irrational mindset, which if anything only makes me more likely to carry.

I do fully respect your property rights. I do. I just don't see how you or any American can place a higher value of stuff then a person's life.

I don't see any logic there, and when I ask for clarity, all I get in response is bumper-sticker sloganeering. Yes, I know it's your property, but there are many things you already can't do to or forbid from employees and customers even while it's still your property in every way, so "my property, my rules" doesn't help anyone understand.

And sure, no one forced me to seek employment with you or be your customer. Yes, my participation is 100% voluntary. The other side of that is, no one forced you to be in business, no one forced you to hire fro the public, and no one forced you to open your business to the public and invite the public in.

So here again we find ourselves on equal footing and the bumper-sticker logic has failed.

Now I know why the State places a higher value on your stuff them someone's life: Taxes.

Given that permit holders are the least likely to commit a crime, private property owners are running from shadows.

FreedomFromAll said:

The key part of this issue is that it is the property owners liberty to allow you to be an invitee on to his property. No matter what you do you are not promised to be an invitee on someone elses property.

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When the property owner signed the construction contract, that's exactly the sort of promise he made.

When an employer chooses to keep an employee on the payroll past 90 days, that is exactly the sort of promise he made.

Worth repeating from another thread: You want to worry about a lil snub .38 in my pocket, but I've carried a loaded belt-fed machine gun for the last year in living arias, chow halls, command posts, and numerous construction sights. Never have I or anyone in my unit had a negligent discharge or lost control of our weapon. Never. I handle grenades and missiles, rifles and machine guns, but you want to get your panties in a bunch over a pistol which has a maximum effective range of about 10-15 feet.

You're a ****ing idiot.

So out of the kindness of my cold, black heart, I've decided to start training with throwing knives. Same range, probably better accuracy with practice, it's not the big-bad gun demon you piss your pants over, and it fits right in with all the tools on my rig.

Oh, AND I can carry concealed (cutting edge less than 3in = street legal to conceal) throwing knives into businesses which prohibit firearms. Outstanding!

Oh now you're gona be on the lookout for throwing knives on tool-belts? No problem. Half of what I remodel are kitchens. You what homeowners keep in kitchens? Knives!

What's that? You gathered up all the knives and put them away before I came over? No problem! Every contractor great and small has a knife of some kind on their person. We literally can't do our job without an edged tool. So go ahead, try telling your contractor that they can't have any kind of blade in your home. Please dear god remember to record the conversation and post it here so we can all laugh at the contractor's reaction and the fee you'll have to pay for terminating the contract before completion.

Jerry said:

Let me shift gears on you here:

Let's say you don't know me, never seen or heard from me before, we're perfect strangers. Let's assume that for some ungodly reason you ordered a new cabinet set from Lowe's, wanted it installed by someone else (since I know you're in the field, let's say your injured) and Lowe's in turn taped my employer to install it. When we go on a Lowe's-install, we wear a Lowe's t-shirt.

What could an installer do to establish a good enough repore(sp) with you, so that if you noticed them wearing a concealed pistol a few hours later, you would be ok with it?

This is open ended, anything at all, answer any way you wish. The question is open to everyone. I would really like to know because I do care.

Click to expand...

I like Tucker Case's posts on this topic, they are pretty well in line with my thinking.

As far as your question goes it I post a sign on my house that says "If you are carrying weapons notify the Master of this property upon entry. All weapons are welcome, especially if the user is proficent. If you intend to indulge in Alcohol or the like then your weapons are to be deposited and locked in the front weapons locker. If they dont fit the front locker, get the Master of the property to deposit them into the main amoury. Thank you." I don't care so long as I know who has em. The main reason being its my family custom though there are basic underlying reasons for the custom. Practically everyone in my clan has arms about their person all the time. They like their weapons. A lot. They also like drinking. A lot. And fighting. A lot. Hence for for survival purposes the front weapons locker. Yes I really do have a weapons locker in my front entry way. If someone voilates my household policy of notification and or posesion while inebreated then generaly I have them check their arms in the front locker or remove them from the property depending on circumtances and attitudes.

I guess my sign sums up my attitude on concealed carry and carrying in general.

Jerry said:

Um, excuse me, but of the people participating in this thread, I'm not one of the 2 threatening to shoot someone only because I didn't know they had a gun.

Kindly take a look in the mirror.

Talking to Tucker has made me re-think my position. I find myself more agreeable to the other side. However, talking to you and comedy4all only further polarize my view. You should look at his posts and take a lesson.

Click to expand...

I dont care to change your position, but I reserve the right to assert my position. And my position is that you and the Government have no right to dictate who and what I allow on my property. And the fact that other people have dishonestly wiggled around the Constitution is not grounds for you to do the same. I am a firm supporter of the right to bear arms in doing so I have the right to protect my property. You demanding to be on my property with a firearm despite my opinion on the matter, is in reality you making it harder for me to protect my property.


As I have said from the beginning you have no right to be on my property, therefore you have no right to carry a gun on my property. You and the NRA want to force yourselves onto my property, that I cannot stand for, which makes me question the honesty of yours and the NRA's motives in why you guys think you must force a private property owner in allowing gun owners special rights under the law. That is why I refuse to accept your claims. Because there is a lot more at stake than just the right to carry a firearm, the right to protect my private property, my family, and my employees is a stake here. And I will not just sit by and watch it happen. SO no I do not want to change your mind I want to inform the readers of the dangers that you are supporting.


Perhaps you can explore those concerns for a change?

Jerry said:

Worth repeating from another thread: You want to worry about a lil snub .38 in my pocket, but I've carried a loaded belt-fed machine gun for the last year in living arias, chow halls, command posts, and numerous construction sights. Never have I or anyone in my unit had a negligent discharge or lost control of our weapon. Never. I handle grenades and missiles, rifles and machine guns, but you want to get your panties in a bunch over a pistol which has a maximum effective range of about 10-15 feet.

You're a ****ing idiot.

So out of the kindness of my cold, black heart, I've decided to start training with throwing knives. Same range, probably better accuracy with practice, it's not the big-bad gun demon you piss your pants over, and it fits right in with all the tools on my rig.

Oh, AND I can carry concealed (cutting edge less than 3in = street legal to conceal) throwing knives into businesses which prohibit firearms. Outstanding!

Oh now you're gona be on the lookout for throwing knives on tool-belts? No problem. Half of what I remodel are kitchens. You what homeowners keep in kitchens? Knives!

What's that? You gathered up all the knives and put them away before I came over? No problem! Every contractor great and small has a knife of some kind on their person. We literally can't do out job without an edged tool. So go ahead, try telling your contractor that they can't have any kind of blade in your home. Please dear god remember to record the conversation and post it here so we can all laugh at the contractor's reaction and the fee you'll have to pay for terminating the contract before completion.

Click to expand...

In that case if I see fit I do not wnat you and your knife on my property, which again is my call not yours.

PirateMk1 said:

I like Tucker Case's posts on this topic, they are pretty well in line with my thinking.

As far as your question goes it I post a sign on my house that says "If you are carrying weapons notify the Master of this property upon entry. All weapons are welcome, especially if the user is proficent. If you intend to indulge in Alcohol or the like then your weapons are to be deposited and locked in the front weapons locker. If they dont fit the front locker, get the Master of the property to deposit them into the main amoury. Thank you." I don't care so long as I know who has em. The main reason being its my family custom though there are basic underlying reasons for the custom. Practically everyone in my clan has arms about their person all the time. They like their weapons. A lot. They also like drinking. A lot. And fighting. A lot. Hence for for survival purposes the front weapons locker. Yes I really do have a weapons locker in my front entry way. If someone voilates my household policy of notification and or posesion while inebreated then generaly I have them check their arms in the front locker or remove them from the property depending on circumtances and attitudes.

I guess my sign sums up my attitude on concealed carry and carrying in general.

Click to expand...

I want to have your child.

I won't ask your clan name, but what is your nationality? I don't want to guess because I'm usually wrong and folks take offence.

My clan is Scottish, though we've thinned out over the last couple generations, sadly.

Jerry said:

I want to have your child.

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Sorry buddy I dont swing that way. But thanks anywhooo LOL.

Jerry said:

I want to have your child.

I won't ask your clan name, but what is your nationality? I don't want to guess because I'm usually wrong and folks take offence.

My clan is Scottish, though we've thinned out over the last couple generations, sadly.

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The Lyons clan and we be Genuine Certified mutts, though English in origin. When god said go forth and mulitiply, our clan took that command VERY seriously. My nation is the good ole US of A, from the land of fruits nuts and flakes, California.

FreedomFromAll said:

I dont care to change your position, but I reserve the right to assert my position. And my position is that you and the Government have no right to dictate who and what I allow on my property. And the fact that other people have dishonestly wiggled around the Constitution is not grounds for you to do the same. I am a firm supporter of the right to bear arms in doing so I have the right to protect my property. You demanding to be on my property with a firearm despite my opinion on the matter, is in reality you making it harder for me to protect my property.

Click to expand...

Permit holders are the least likely demographic to commit any kind of crime. Not just violent crime, but any kind of crime at all, including theft while you're not home, or even littering on your property. Permit holders are not your enemy, the guy who has an illegal firearm and intends to brake some laws today is your enemy, and he's not gong to tell you he's armed or honor any sign. Gun control doesn't work, whether we're talking a public policy on public land or your own private rule in your business. Gun control does not work.

What does work, is an armed population. This is true whether we're talking about a public population, or the micro population just on your land. More gun = less crime, categorically.

FreedomFromAll said:

As I have said from the beginning you have no right to be on my property, therefore you have no right to carry a gun on my property. You and the NRA want to force yourselves onto my property, that I cannot stand for, which makes me question the honesty of yours and the NRA's motives in why you guys think you must force a private property owner in allowing gun owners special rights under the law. That is why I refuse to accept your claims. Because there is a lot more at stake than just the right to carry a firearm, the right to protect my private property, my family, and my employees is a stake here. And I will not just sit by and watch it happen. SO no I do not want to change your mind I want to inform the readers of the dangers that you are supporting.


Perhaps you can explore those concerns for a change?

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I try to state things as simply as I can, for my own sake if not for others...

We hold that just like race, religion, nationality, etc, that lawfully possessed firearms are part of what you are choosing to welcome on to your property when you welcome the public per-se onto your property, because lawfully possessed firearms are a part of the law-abiding public.

PirateMk1 said:

The Lyons clan and we be Genuine Certified mutts, though English in origin. When god said go forth and mulitiply, our clan took that command VERY seriously. My nation is the good ole US of A, from the land of fruits nuts and flakes, California.

Click to expand...

Lyons with the "s" is Irish, if I'm not mistaken...yes? Low landers...

Jerry said:

Lyons with the "s" is Irish, if I'm not mistaken...yes? Low landers...

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As you may know there are a lot of us. As far I know linage wise we be English though to be honest its probably very likely to be more than one Recorded linage considering how widespread we be.