View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #81
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    here's the thing to me:

    If a business owner says I can't carry a gun inside his business, that is his right I suppose (though I think it makes him responsible for my safety vs criminal assault while inside!). The key point is he is only restricting me from carrying inside his business.

    The "no gun in the car in the employee parking lot" not only disarms me at work, it disarms me on the way TO and FROM work, any stops I make in between, and when I get home. He's impairing my safety and 2a rights not merely at his business, but AWAY FROM IT AS WELL.

    See my point?
    I'm going to like and disagree at the same time. You have to option of parking or working somewhere else. There are many things that can be implicit or explicit in a work contract, and if a business owner wishes to not associate themselves with a gun owner that is their prerogative. It is no different than the behavior clauses used by the NFL (and other organizations for that matter).

    However, your logic that the owner is intruding on your rights is valid. But it is the owner's business and they can choose the terms of their employment contracts just as easily as you can.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Honestly, I don't think people care whether guns are on the premises or not. I have never checked to see if a business allows guns on their premises. That's just me though.
    Neither have I and I think most people don't because they assume that businesses just do whatever the culture in their area does. However, I'm thinking of places like Chicago where conceal carry and all that isn't legal. If it were to become legal, that would bring a change in culture and I suspect some people would feel more comfortable in places where no guns were allowed and others would feel more comfortable in places where they are allowed.

  3. #83
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Neither have I and I think most people don't because they assume that businesses just do whatever the culture in their area does. However, I'm thinking of places like Chicago where conceal carry and all that isn't legal. If it were to become legal, that would bring a change in culture and I suspect some people would feel more comfortable in places where no guns were allowed and others would feel more comfortable in places where they are allowed.
    On a side note with Chicago, I think they should legalize concealed carry. Heck, they've tried everything else to get crime down. Why not try that? lol
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  4. #84
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    I'm going to like and disagree at the same time. You have to option of parking or working somewhere else. There are many things that can be implicit or explicit in a work contract, and if a business owner wishes to not associate themselves with a gun owner that is their prerogative. It is no different than the behavior clauses used by the NFL (and other organizations for that matter).

    However, your logic that the owner is intruding on your rights is valid. But it is the owner's business and they can choose the terms of their employment contracts just as easily as you can.
    The bold seems, to me, to be the most logical conclusion. It should be left up to businesses whether or not they want to take the potential losses they might see from banning guns from their property. Ultimately, people don't have to work there or patronize the place if they don't agree with it's policy so it seems like a win-win situation. Business owners get to do what they want with their property and gun owners get to choose whether or not they go to places that carry. Forcing businesses to allow weapons seems like it just forces them to do something that isn't particularly necessary.

  5. #85
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    On a side note with Chicago, I think they should legalize concealed carry. Heck, they've tried everything else to get crime down. Why not try that? lol
    Meh, I'm not really in favor of concealed carry in Chicago. I'm also not sure it would do much considering the gangs out here have no problem killing cops and everybody else. The main problem with Chicago is that it's government is so beyond corrupt that it can't do anything right besides make the city look pretty so tourists think it's amazing.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Barring legal requirements, why does a business "have" to make accommodations for employees and customers. Why can't businesses choose to make accomodations?
    That's the thing though.

    Constitutionally, Business's can't discriminate legally against say....blacks or muslims.

    However, constitutionally, you have a right to keep and bear arms as well.

    The question comes down to why is it okay for one constitutional right to overrule personal property but not the other.

    I was kind of on the side you are coming into this, and still somewhat am...but I think that's a legitimate question. If it's not illegal in your state/city to be carrying in a certain way, why can the business dictate to you that you can't carry your gun into the business with you but can't dictate that you're not allowed to wear a religious item or carry around your Koran?

    If I read your later posts correct...your basic argument is they've passed laws restricting private business from discriminating against things like religion and race but not laws restricting them from being able to ban guns? If so, that does make sense and seem's a good counter argument.

    Though I do think there's a massive gray area in regards to parking lots. Your car is your property, but it's on their property. At that portion I think I'd side on the line of erring on the side of the property rights of those acting on their second amendment rights rather than the property rights seeking to limit (granted, in a more legal way since it's not the government) the right, if that makes sense.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Then I suppose Federal safety regulations and bans against racial/etc discrimination don't apply to businesses either?
    If I understand him right, the difference is there are laws specifically stating "This applies to business" that regulates and denies them to discriminate against those things.

    There's no such laws with regards to the 2nd amendment.

    The fact that it takes additional laws beyond the constitution to apply such things to businesses demonstrates that it takes more than just the constitution to enforce that upon private entities.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Therein lies the debate my friend. If the gov't upholds a policy by a employer to disallow firearms on their property, is the gov't not now enforcing said policy by ruling in the employer's favor?
    They're not enforcing anything. Nobody has a right to a job. Most states are at-will employers. You either follow your employer's rules or they fire your ass.

    Quite simple.
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  9. #89
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    They're not enforcing anything. Nobody has a right to a job. Most states are at-will employers. You either follow your employer's rules or they fire your ass.

    Quite simple.
    I also don't believe the employer has the right to infringe on your Constitutional rights. BTW, I am very torn on this issue. Its a darned if you, darned if don't scenario IMO. As has been posted already, employers can't infringe on your religious rights or be racist towards you. Why can they take this right?
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  10. #90
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    That's the thing though.

    Constitutionally, Business's can't discriminate legally against say....blacks or muslims.

    However, constitutionally, you have a right to keep and bear arms as well.
    The Constitution applies to the government not to businesses, so constitutionally businesses can do whatever. It is illegal for them to discriminate by race and religion, but that's because of specific laws rather than the Constitution.

    Now people do have the right to keep and bear arms, but businesses have no Constitutional obligation to help them do that.

    The question comes down to why is it okay for one constitutional right to overrule personal property but not the other.
    I was kind of on the side you are coming into this, and still somewhat am...but I think that's a legitimate question. If it's not illegal in your state/city to be carrying in a certain way, why can the business dictate to you that you can't carry your gun into the business with you but can't dictate that you're not allowed to wear a religious item or carry around your Koran?[/quote]As I said, I don't think the right to bear arms really applies to this since businesses are under no obligation to help people practice that right. However, I agree with the nature of your question: Why is it justified to stop businesses from discriminating, but not from preventing customers and employees from carrying weapons.

    My answer to the question is that banning guns does not do employees, customers or society any inherent harm while discriminating against employees and customers does. If I walk into a business without a gun, most of the time, it won't matter. Nothing is going to happen that will make me wish I had a gun the vast majority of the time. However, if I walk into a business that discriminates against me, then something harmful will happen every time - they will discriminate against me. Ultimately, the costs of discrimination are higher than the costs of banning guns which is why the former must be outlawed and the latter doesn't have to be.

    Put another way, you could ask the question: what is serious enough to warrant telling people what to do on their property? I argue that discrimination is and the potential for a safety issue that might be helped by guns is not.

    If I read your later posts correct...your basic argument is they've passed laws restricting private business from discriminating against things like religion and race but not laws restricting them from being able to ban guns? If so, that does make sense and seem's a good counter argument.

    Though I do think there's a massive gray area in regards to parking lots. Your car is your property, but it's on their property. At that portion I think I'd side on the line of erring on the side of the property rights of those acting on their second amendment rights rather than the property rights seeking to limit (granted, in a more legal way since it's not the government) the right, if that makes sense.
    That's a fair point. With the parking lot, you essentially have two competing property rights. With that, I can sympathize with the argument that guns should be allowed in parking lots. I'm not entirely sure I agree with that though, but I wouldn't actively argue against a law that pushed for that.

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