View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #51
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    If people don't want to work at places that don't allow guns, then they can work somewhere else.
    ...And if people don't want to work at places that don't pay for birth control, then they can also work somewhere else. Right?

    This is a great question, Marine, as demonstrated by the logical, intelligent responses.

    My automatic response is that gun rights hold sway. On the other hand, do we really want Dwight Schrute walking around the office all day, every day, with a Smith & Wesson.40 strapped to his leg? Even if he's legally obliged to do so? Talk about a hostile work environment.

    On the other hand, if some whackjob gets fired and comes back with an "assault" rifle (hat tip to Goshen), wouldn't it be nice if Dwight was also a crack shot and put one in the whackjob's eye before he got started with his massacre?

    On the other hand, If I start and run a business, don't I have the right to ask employees to follow my rules? I can order them to please NOT espouse their extremist political views to my customers (true story), but then I'm violating their civil rights, right?

    On the other hand, defending my life is a bit more complicated than speaking my mind.

    I'll argue either side, but at the end of the day I'm a fan of the second amendment. Too much crazy stuff going on these days, bottom line.

    So yes, I'll leave it in the car if they make it a condition of my employment or patronage, because if I agree to their silly no-firearm rule then I'm willfully giving up my right to bear arms.

    But no, I'm not going to drive unarmed back and forth to work each day. I drive a chrome Fisker just like Justin Bieber's, and some whackjob high on bath salts is gonna 'jack it and/or eat my face. So no, unless they let me keep it in my car, or they have a weapons cage at the front desk (one that the aforementioned whackjob can't possibly gain access to), then they can kiss my American arse. I'll work/shop/eat/play somewhere else.

    I like Jerry's answer best. Don't ask, don't tell.
    You won't know I have it until I have to use it, and then you'll be damn glad I had it.

  2. #52
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by GJ Flash View Post
    On the other hand, If I start and run a business, don't I have the right to ask employees to follow my rules? I can order them to please NOT espouse their extremist political views to my customers (true story), but then I'm violating their civil rights, right?
    If they're driving away your costumers then they're harming your business, but a concealed pistol doesn't harm anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by GJ Flash View Post
    I like Jerry's answer best. Don't ask, don't tell.
    You won't know I have it until I have to use it, and then you'll be damn glad I had it.
    The CO shooting is exactly why I carry into businesses with posted 'no-firearms' signs. Zombies love to attack gun-free-zones.

  3. #53
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I disagree. I think they would rule it based on property rights vs 2nd Amendment rights. Reason being, the private property is still in the US and Americans are working there. Those Americans have rights. Owners of private property can't take away Constitutional rights can they? I'm being the devil's advocate btw. Personally, I believe the property rights should hold sway. I'm just thinking out loud.
    If you follow this logic then the WBBC would be allowed to set up on your front lawn and protest and you couldn't call the cops to get them off of your property because that would be the government infringing their right to free speech.

    I obviously disagree with this logic.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    My property, my rules. Unless the business is breaking some sort of law by restricting people from owning guns on his property, then there is no issue here. It's a false dichotomy.
    If you don't mind I'd like to explore this a little bit.

    Your property, your rules. Ok. I'm an installer working for a contractor you hired to remodel your bathroom/kitchen/basement/etc. Our company actually does have a good reputation for quality work, meeting deadlines and offering competitive prices. I say all this to control for the quality of craftsmanship in your decision making.

    So, I'm one of a few in your home working on the project. It's your house so as per your assertion, your word is final, regardless.

    ~Brand loyalty is something one commonly finds in construction. My personal brand loyalty is with DeWalt. Every power tool I have is DeWalt, no exceptions. I will even pay more to get the same tool in DeWalt that I could get of the same quality in another brand for less. Now let's say you have some problem with DeWalt you feel is worth making an issue over. Perhaps DeWalt's CEO expressed a strong political opinion in the Wall Street Journal which you passionately disagree with, and your boycotting. Paying me is essentially paying DeWalt, since I'm their customer. Maybe you're environmentally conscience, did your homework and object to the kinds of batteries DeWalt uses or how DeWalt produces and/or disposes of them. Maybe Dewalt outsources labor in a way you despise. Maybe you just don't like the color yellow.

    Do you have the right to tell me I can't use my DeWalt tools in your home under threat of canceling the contract?


    ~What if you have the kind same problem with the brand of jeans I'm wearing, something you feel is worth making a fuss about? Are you going to tell me I have to go home and change? What if I only own the one brand, are you telling me I can't work on your project until I go buy a brand you approve of?


    ~What if you have a problem with the War on Terror and I wear one of my OEF-Afghanistan, Fort Benning or National Guard shirts (these aren't political shirts)?


    ~For that matter, what if you 'order' me to talk about my thoughts on gay serving in the military while working in your home?


    Exactly how far does 'my property, my rules' go?
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-02-12 at 03:55 AM.

  5. #55
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    A property owner can disallow you on their property at their own digression. Nothing overrides the rights of the property owner period. But a vehicle is the employees private property so the fire arm within it is not legally on the business owners property. But again the property owner can through off their property for suspecting you have something they do not like in your vehicle. If they fire you for having a firearm on their property there are many elements that would determine if you could bring legal action against the property owner. Logically you would really not have a leg to stand on.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    A property owner can disallow you on their property at their own digression. Nothing overrides the rights of the property owner period. But a vehicle is the employees private property so the fire arm within it is not legally on the business owners property. But again the property owner can through off their property for suspecting you have something they do not like in your vehicle. If they fire you for having a firearm on their property there are many elements that would determine if you could bring legal action against the property owner. Logically you would really not have a leg to stand on.
    We start with the individual's right to be secure in their person and papers, which is where the right to private property comes from.

    The car, SCOTUS ruled, is an extension of the employee, and that's why the employer may not regulate it. Since the car is protected because it's an extension of the employee, then logically the employee herself is protected, since she is the principal source of the right which is protecting the car. An employee in the building is identical to a car in the parking lot, so if an employer can't object to a gun in the car, neither can they object to a gun on an employee's person.

  7. #57
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    We start with the individual's right to be secure in their person and papers, which is where the right to private property comes from.

    The car, SCOTUS ruled, is an extension of the employee, and that's why the employer may not regulate it. Since the car is protected because it's an extension of the employee, then logically the employee herself is protected, since she is the principal source of the right which is protecting the car. An employee in the building is identical to a car in the parking lot, so if an employer can't object to a gun in the car, neither can they object to a gun on an employee's person.
    But the employer can object to your presence on the property. The employer can fire you for nothing at all really as long as they do so within the limits of the law. As a property owner they can choose what you can and cannot bring onto their property. And if they believe that you might be bringing something they do not want they can throw you off of their property.

    If their is a rumor that someone you know is a thief, you do not need proof to throw them off of your private property. As an employee you may have a contract or there may be certain laws that give you a little more rights on private property of where you work but at any moment they can throw you out the door. You would have to go to court to address anything that you feel violated your rights. After the fact you could try to present a reason for carrying a firearm somewhere where the property owner forbid the possession of a firearm.


    In New Mexico the law says this: Pursuant to Subsection C of NMSA 1978 Section 29-19-12, any person lawfully in possession of private property may prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns on such private property by posting notice in accordance with NMSA 1978 Section 30-14-6 or by verbally notifying persons entering upon the property.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    But the employer can object to your presence on the property.
    If I'm just some Joe-Schmuck passing through, yeah, they can kick me off for any or no reason. Once they've hired me, however, they have to show cause or I can file a complaint and get them cited, fined and/or I get to collect on their unemployment insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The employer can fire you for nothing at all really as long as they do so within the limits of the law.
    Ultimately, everyone can do absolutely anything they want. But be ready to accept the consequences. Sure, an employer can fire me for no reason at all, but I would then get to collect a check from their unemployment insurance, and I think Democrats just extended unemployment benefits again.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    As a property owner they can choose what you can and cannot bring onto their property. And if they believe that you might be bringing something they do not want they can throw you off of their property.
    Depends on the item, depends of the reason. They can not like my father's ring all day long, but as it's in the same type of classification as the wedding rings they do allow, should they fire me for it I'll get free money from them for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    If their is a rumor that someone you know is a thief, you do not need proof to throw them off of your private property.
    And if the employer can't prove their a thief when the unemployment caseworker calls the next day, the employer will have to pay. Likewise, if the employer can't prove they're a thief when the lawyers calls, the employer will have to pay even more when the slander suit comes down.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    As an employee you may have a contract or there may be certain laws that give you a little more rights on private property of where you work but at any moment they can throw you out the door.
    The moment they put their hands on me to 'throw me out the door', they're committing assault, so we'll just add that to 'slander' and 'wrongful termination'.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    You would have to go to court to address anything that you feel violated your rights. After the fact you could try to present a reason for carrying a firearm somewhere where the property owner forbid the possession of a firearm.
    You seem to think you can just use and abuse people who are on your property without consequence. One day you're going to have a very rude awakening.

    When you hired the employee, in the interview...did you ask if they had any formal hand-to-hand combat training? I mean, if you looked at my resume, the military service is hard to miss, so if you plan on retaining some 'right' to assault me ("throw me out the door", at it were) you may want that information before you do something stupid and your arm goes in a cast. Also, in such a confrontation, were you to ever try and disarm me, that's 'reaching' and will justify my using lethal force to stop you. As a civilian you must have a Guard Card and be employed as a 'guard' in order to take a weapon off of anyone. Do you have a Guard Card?

    So, think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    In New Mexico the law says this: Pursuant to Subsection C of NMSA 1978 Section 29-19-12, any person lawfully in possession of private property may prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns on such private property by posting notice in accordance with NMSA 1978 Section 30-14-6 or by verbally notifying persons entering upon the property.
    A better source: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newmexico.pdf

    ...though I don't see why your stating this. I already know about the laws I'm arguing to overturn.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-02-12 at 05:33 AM.

  9. #59
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If I'm just some Joe-Schmuck passing through, yeah, they can kick me off for any or no reason. Once they've hired me, however, they have to show cause or I can file a complaint and get them cited, fined and/or I get to collect on their unemployment insurance.


    Ultimately, everyone can do absolutely anything they want. But be ready to accept the consequences. Sure, an employer can fire me for no reason at all, but I would then get to collect a check from their unemployment insurance, and I think Democrats just extended unemployment benefits again.



    Depends on the item, depends of the reason. They can not like my father's ring all day long, but as it's in the same type of classification as the wedding rings they do allow, should they fire me for it I'll get free money from them for a while.



    And if the employer can't prove their a thief when the unemployment caseworker calls the next day, the employer will have to pay. Likewise, if the employer can't prove they're a thief when the lawyers calls, the employer will have to pay even more when the slander suit comes down.



    The moment they put their hands on me to 'throw me out the door', they're committing assault, so we'll just add that to 'slander' and 'wrongful termination'.


    You seem to think you can just use and abuse people who are on your property without consequence. One day you're going to have a very rude awakening.

    When you hired the employee, in the interview...did you ask if they had any formal hand-to-hand combat training? I mean, if you looked at my resume, the military service is hard to miss, so if you plan on retaining some 'right' to assault me ("throw me out the door", at it were) you may want that information before you do something stupid and your arm goes in a cast. Also, in such a confrontation, were you to ever try and disarm me, that's 'reaching' and will justify my using lethal force to stop you. As a civilian you must have a Guard Card and be employed as a 'guard' in order to take a weapon off of anyone. Do you have a Guard Card?

    So, think about it.


    A better source: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newmexico.pdf

    ...though I don't see why your stating this. I already know about the laws I'm arguing to overturn.
    Throwing you out the door was figurative not actually physically handling the person. The fact is that an employer can demand you to leave the property without a reason why they are making the demand. They can even call law enforcement if you refuse. Of course as I said after the fact you may have a case against your employer depending on various laws. But the property owner can legally demand that you leave the property for no reason other than they dont want you there.


    That being said though I think that there should be a compromise. I think that it is understandable that a gun carrier obviously has the legal right to carry a gun. And even the NRA is not asking to let employees sport a gun inside the work place (if the work place does not require it) but if one wants a gun for the commute or whatever they do traveling to the work place where else would they store the gun but in their vehicle. Personally I see no problem with storing a weapon in a vehicle. Most work places only check the employees after they have exited the parking lot anyways. Well some have guards when you enter the parking lot but they mostly just check if you should be there at all.


    But if you remove the weapon from the vehicle on the property I believe that property rights wins in that case. Being on someones private property is a privilege not a right. Even if you work on the property that doesn't change the the laws for private property. I dont believe that the employer though can legally ask the employee if they are a gun owner though. So unless the gun is visible no one would really know unless the employee was stupid enough to announce it. Also in play would be any agreement signed by the employee that would make it legal for the employer to ban guns even in a vehicle.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Throwing you out the door was figurative not actually physically handling the person.
    So, you believe a lawfully carried firearm by a trained person with a clean criminal history on your property is a threat, and your reaction is to use tuff-guy talk thinking everyone will 'understand'. Good luck with that. If you're right and the person is a threat, you're more likely to get shot because you couldn't control your mouth. Something tells me this wouldn't be the first time your mouth got you into trouble, though.

    There is a scope of correct actions, ranging from politely pointing out the sign and asking the person to leave, to quietly calling the police and letting them handle it, even pressing charges if you wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    They can even call law enforcement if you refuse.
    Well, in your state, you can press charges even they made an honest mistake, immediately fully comply and sincerely apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Of course as I said after the fact you may have a case against your employer depending on various laws. But the property owner can legally demand that you leave the property for no reason other than they don't want you there.
    Not when you're an employee, they can't...at least not without also suffering legal consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    That being said though I think that there should be a compromise. I think that it is understandable that a gun carrier obviously has the legal right to carry a gun. And even the NRA is not asking to let employees sport a gun inside the work place (if the work place does not require it) but if one wants a gun for the commute or whatever they do traveling to the work place where else would they store the gun but in their vehicle. Personally I see no problem with storing a weapon in a vehicle. Most work places only check the employees after they have exited the parking lot anyways. Well some have guards when you enter the parking lot but they mostly just check if you should be there at all.
    I love compromise, I actually look for opportunities to compromise on every issue.

    I offer that employees only be allowed to carry concealed, not open, just like a dress-code. I offer that employers have the right to make a photocopy of the employee's CCW for their files, just like a driver's license and social security card. I also offer that employers should receive special legal protection in the federal code against liability for damage, injury or death should an otherwise legally carried firearm be used on their property.

    And in return for these infringements on the individual's privacy, the individual has the right to carry a gun in the building, while employed, while on the clock, just like they have the right to be black, a woman, or gay, and not discriminated against.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    But if you remove the weapon from the vehicle on the property I believe that property rights wins in that case. Being on someones private property is a privilege not a right.
    See that's where the rub is, because if they're an employee, the do have a right to be there. If they're not an employee then yes it's merely a privilege.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Even if you work on the property that doesn't change the the laws for private property. I dont believe that the employer though can legally ask the employee if they are a gun owner though. So unless the gun is visible no one would really know unless the employee was stupid enough to announce it. Also in play would be any agreement signed by the employee that would make it legal for the employer to ban guns even in a vehicle.
    That agreement wouldn't be legal. No private contract can otherwise brake the law, or it is void. If an employee signs such a contract and has a gun in their car anyway, there's nothing the employer could do about it since the contract itself brakes the law.

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