View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

Voters
79. You may not vote on this poll
  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
Page 49 of 54 FirstFirst ... 394748495051 ... LastLast
Results 481 to 490 of 538

Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #481
    Anti political parties
    FreedomFromAll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    New Mexico USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,042

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Permission was given when you unlocked the front door and turned on the "open" sign. It's then up to you to rescind that permission individually. If you tell me to leave because I'm carrying in your store, then I interpret that as a fault on my part for not concealing properly.
    And if you are hiding a gun on your body and were not even smart enough to tell me how am I suppose to know that you are not a criminal? Many robberies involve a concealed weapon of some sort then when they feel brave enough out it comes and its pointed at the clerk or store owner. One way to instantly know that the person with the bulge is up to no good is to ban guns on the property in the first place. Then the clerk can respond right away with their gun. Instead of wasting time wondering if you have a permit or if you intend to use that gun for no good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    In Florida, for example, gun-buster signs are illegal. You, as the business owner, are not permitted to ban lawfully carried firearms from your property when that property is open to the public. You can be fined for trying.

    The reason behind the law is that only the State has the authority to ban firearms from publicly accessible places.

    A business owner can still require that all such firearms be concealed, however, just as they can require shoes and shirt.
    Well I am not in Florida. I am instead in New Mexico where I can tell you to leave if I saw you as a threat. Which since you are running around being sneaky about carrying a gun like some under hand coward I would make you leave just out of principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Uh, no. I don't even see how you could infer that. Only the state has the authority to ban firearms because only the state can execute Due Process, which is required in order to properly infringe.
    Really and how come you cannot come into my house with a gun if I do not want you too? Im not talking presumed public property in this case I am talking real private property. I dont care what state you are talking about the the private property owner or the person in control of private property can tell you for any reason to leave. The only part the state plays in is that police must obey the home owners wishes.

    Which shows that there are legal situations that go against what you are claiming. In fact if I want you to leave my house I can even legally use racial discrimination. Not that I ever would but if I wanted to I could.

  2. #482
    Sage
    jet57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    not here
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:58 AM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    24,695

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's not true. Check with your local laws.

    In Florida, my earlier example, if the owner says I can't bring a gun onto their property, the owner is braking the law and I will be allowed to carry against their will.

    In many states where gun-buster signs are not backed by the law, if the owner doesn't spot a concealed firearm, they can't do anything about it. It's not illegal.

    Additionally, many states protect the employee's right to store a firearm in their car. You can scream and cry all day but you still can't stop the employee from bringing the firearm onto your property while stored in their car. Yes, it's you're private property, your name on the deed/title, and they can still bring a gun against your expressed objection.
    I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. If a company who owns their own property says that you can't solicit, the you can't solicit.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  3. #483
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    And if you are hiding a gun on your body and were not even smart enough to tell me how am I suppose to know that you are not a criminal?
    I would be more than happy to present my CCW on-demand. If I were a criminal, I couldn't have a permit, and so then you would know.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Well I am not in Florida. I am instead in New Mexico where I can tell you to leave if I saw you as a threat. Which since you are running around being sneaky about carrying a gun like some under hand coward I would make you leave just out of principle.
    Gotta catch me first Good hunting.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Really and how come you cannot come into my house with a gun if I do not want you too?
    It's a private residence, not a business open to the public.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Im not talking presumed public property in this case I am talking real private property. I dont care what state you are talking about the the private property owner or the person in control of private property can tell you for any reason to leave. The only part the state plays in is that police must obey the home owners wishes.
    A residence, yes, a business open to the public, not so much

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Which shows that there are legal situations that go against what you are claiming. In fact if I want you to leave my house I can even legally use racial discrimination. Not that I ever would but if I wanted to I could.
    A residence, yes, a business open to the public, no way.

  4. #484
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. If a company who owns their own property says that you can't solicit, the you can't solicit.
    Indeed, but we're not talking about solicitation. Check the link I provided, pick a state, it will give you a run-down on that state's laws. Look for the section on "Do no-gun signs carry the force of law". Many states are different.

  5. #485
    Sage
    jet57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    not here
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:58 AM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    24,695

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Indeed, but we're not talking about solicitation. Check the link I provided, pick a state, it will give you a run-down on that state's laws. Look for the section on "Do no-gun signs carry the force of law". Many states are different.
    Okay; you name the states that have laws that say you can carry a gun onto private poperty against the owner's will. And quote the laws.

    That should be a snap for you.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  6. #486
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Okay; you name the states that have laws that say you can carry a gun onto private poperty against the owner's will. And quote the laws.

    That should be a snap for you.
    I've been using Florida as an example. Here's the law:

    (4) PROHIBITED ACTS.--No public or private employer may violate the constitutional rights of any
    customer, employee, or invitee as provided in paragraphs (a)-(e):


    (a) No public or private employer may prohibit any customer, employee, or invitee from possessing
    any legally owned firearm when such firearm is lawfully possessed and locked inside or locked to a
    private motor vehicle in a parking lot and when the customer, employee, or invitee is lawfully in such
    area.


    (b) No public or private employer may violate the privacy rights of a customer, employee, or invitee
    by verbal or written inquiry regarding the presence of a firearm inside or locked to a private motor
    vehicle in a parking lot or by an actual search of a private motor vehicle in a parking lot to ascertain
    the presence of a firearm within the vehicle. Further, no public or private employer may take any
    action against a customer, employee, or invitee based upon verbal or written statements of any party
    concerning possession of a firearm stored inside a private motor vehicle in a parking lot for lawful
    purposes. A search of a private motor vehicle in the parking lot of a public or private employer to
    ascertain the presence of a firearm within the vehicle may only be conducted by on-duty law
    enforcement personnel, based upon due process and must comply with constitutional protections.

    (c) No public or private employer shall condition employment upon either:
    1. The fact that an employee or prospective employee holds or does not hold a license issued
    pursuant to s. 790.06; or
    2. Any agreement by an employee or a prospective employee that prohibits an employee
    from keeping a legal firearm locked inside or locked to a private motor vehicle in a parking
    lot when such firearm is kept for lawful purposes.


    (d) No public or private employer shall prohibit or attempt to prevent any customer, employee, or
    invitee from entering the parking lot of the employer's place of business because the customer's,
    employee's, or invitee's private motor vehicle contains a legal firearm being carried for lawful
    purposes, that is out of sight within the customer's, employee's, or invitee's private motor vehicle.


    (e) No public or private employer may terminate the employment of or otherwise discriminate
    against an employee, or expel a customer or invitee for exercising his or her constitutional right to
    keep and bear arms or for exercising the right of self-defense as long as a firearm is never exhibited
    on company property for any reason other than lawful defensive purposes.


    This subsection applies to all public sector employers, including those already prohibited from
    regulating firearms under the provisions of s. 790.33.
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/florida.pdf

  7. #487
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Okay; you name the states that have laws that say you can carry a gun onto private poperty against the owner's will. And quote the laws.

    That should be a snap for you.
    Good morning. Here's more supporting Florida law:

    Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

    790.33 Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.—(1) PREEMPTION.—Except as expressly provided by the State Constitution or general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, storage, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or any administrative regulations or rules adopted by local or state government relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances, rules, or regulations are hereby declared null and void.

    ~snip~

    (c) If the court determines that a violation was knowing and willful, the court shall assess a civil fine of up to $5,000 against the elected or appointed local government official or officials or administrative agency head under whose jurisdiction the violation occurred.

    ~snip~



    In Flordia, if you own a private business, and you so much as post a gun-buster sign, you will fined up to $5,000. Every customer you turn away, every employee you fire, will also result in a $5,000 fine, each.

    This should be the standard for all states. No private business should be allowed to ban lawful carry without a very good reason and special permission from the state.
    Last edited by Jerry; 09-19-12 at 08:36 AM.

  8. #488
    Matthew 16:3

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Last Seen
    06-24-17 @ 05:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    45,603

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I don't even see how you could infer that.
    It probably has something to do with knowing what the sentence you wrote would actually mean.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  9. #489
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Last Seen
    01-03-13 @ 09:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    579

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Property rights have to win out here, remember corporations are legal people and that is thier private property, and I know I can tell you to leave my house if I don't want you there with a gun.

    Even if you buy the IMO suspect idea that the second amendment is two clauses, one for militas and the other giving you the right to keep and bare arms, it is already clear that there are limits on the arms you are allowed to have, therefor it only makes sense there would be limits with respect to property, after all I cannot goto bank of America's lobby and give a speech under my right to free speech, they would tell me it is private property and if I have no business there to leave and it would be legal.

  10. #490
    Anti political parties
    FreedomFromAll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    New Mexico USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,042

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I would be more than happy to present my CCW on-demand. If I were a criminal, I couldn't have a permit, and so then you would know.


    Gotta catch me first Good hunting.
    Then I will install a metal detector. Oh and only criminals with with a criminal record cannot have a permit. ANd you completely ignored my point about policing and safety. If I have a store in a bad neighborhood where it is higher probability that the person carrying a concealed weapon is doing so illegally, by banning all guns in my store I can then safely assume that someone with a gun is a threat and act accordingly.





    It's a private residence, not a business open to the public.


    A residence, yes, a business open to the public, not so much


    A residence, yes, a business open to the public, no way.
    "Only the state has the authority to ban firearms because only the state can execute Due Process, which is required in order to properly infringe." So a private citizen can execute "Due Process" at their residence? And as I have stated to you many times before, not all business have presumed public property. Your argument only holds for public property and can not go any further than public property.


    When all is said and done this is where the issue stands. Individual rights vs individual rights. Each individual has the civil right to bear arms (unless you committed a felony then your disfranchised).
    But the right to bear arms has its limits. For example you may not just waltz into someones house carrying a gun without the permission of the person in control of the house. The reason that you need permission to go into someone elses house with a gun is because private property rights trumps the invitees civil right to bear arms on that private property. Just the same freedom of speech has no power within a private property of someone elses house.

    I am now talking about an individuals home instead of a business to raise a point. The fact that certain rights can be voided by a person being invited into someone elses home shows that private property rights are above other rights. The effect is that you have the right to bear arms just not on someones elses property. The proof of that reality is the fact that the NRA needs laws to force property owners to allow someone to bear arms on their property. Its a very slippery slope when you start enacting laws that take away the rights of property owners. And quit honestly I do not trust the NRA and you are a good example why. Since you keep bragging about sneaking guns into places that even the law agrees that you shouldnt even with a permit to carry a concealed weapon. It shows dishonestly in tune with criminal mind. If you are willing to sneak a gun into places the law does not allow what else will you do? It goes back to the basics of gun safety and the rights of other people than yourself. I suspect that eventually you will get caught with you gun in the wrong place and then you will lose the right to carry a concealed weapon. Because you see there are people that are hunting for someone like you to make an example out of. And their intentions are to use you as fodder to gain support for gun control legislation.

Page 49 of 54 FirstFirst ... 394748495051 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •