View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #451
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    I would think that second amendment rights would trump property owner rights unless perhaps the property owner has a sign stating no firearms or no weapons or something. Of course, I'm not sure of the law, so that's just my opinion.

  2. #452
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    It exactly why we have a supreme court. When one right overlaps another a ruling has to be made. I haven't bothered to look at all the cases the court has ever heard regarding the 2nd amendment but I'll say this, the second amendment surely trumps property rights. It's not stepped on in the above instances, it's recognizing that amendment #2 overrides the concerns of property owners. Madison didn't draft the bill of rights up willy nilly. He didn't just jot down what kept to mind and have that list make it to the final draft.

    Questions:

    Where does your concept of 'Property Rights' stem from?

    Who do you think enforces them?

    I'm not trying to be snarky. I am trying to figure out how to field your questions so you 'get' my answers. I've answered the above question 2+ times already in this thread.
    You left out the word private. Private property rights are the center of our liberties and freedoms the main purpose of the 2nd Amendment is the right to protect our private property. Without private property rights, we have no right to own anything and therefore have no rights at all. In order to bear arms you must own a gun if you cannot own a gun then you live in a dictatorship.


    So this is my point and listen closely. If we keep creating laws that take away private property rights eventually we will wont be able to own anything privately. We will have become like Cuba etc. where its almost impossible to possess a firearm. I am also saying that if I cannot decide how to protect my property then you have taken away me right to defend my property.

    Also here this people are willing not only to retain the 2nd Amendment but also the right to own and private property. If I can no longer in control of my property it is no longer private property. Be it real estate or personal possessions (including guns) the more control that i lose the closer that I feel that I do not really own anything.


    People will bear arms to protect the right to bear arms. People will also bear arms to protect their private property. In fact the part of the Constitution mentioning where the Government cannot house troops in our houses makes private property rights an enumerated right. Which also makes our private property protected by the Constitution.

  3. #453
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    I asked you 2 questions and haven't received a reply.

    I cannot frame a discussion properly without knowing where your 'source' for your ideas on the law stem from.

    Whenever I try and nail you down you wriggle away and argue another facet of your position.

    If you can answer my questions we can continue the discussion. Otherwise we are wasting our time.

    Edit: Are you saying you believe Property Rights are implied by the Constitution and not clearly stated or defined?
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
    It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. - Andrew Jackson
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  4. #454
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    I asked you 2 questions and haven't received a reply.

    I cannot frame a discussion properly without knowing where your 'source' for your ideas on the law stem from.

    Whenever I try and nail you down you wriggle away and argue another facet of your position.

    If you can answer my questions we can continue the discussion. Otherwise we are wasting our time.

    Edit: Are you saying you believe Property Rights are implied by the Constitution and not clearly stated or defined?
    In fact the part of the Constitution mentioning where the Government cannot house troops in our houses makes private property rights an enumerated right. Which also makes our private property protected by the Constitution. Nope they are clearly stated and built around the concept of private property.

    Property is surely a right of mankind, as really as liberty. (John Adams)

    Government is instituted to protect property of every sort; as well that which lies in the various rights of individuals, as that which the term particularly expresses. This being the end of government, that alone is a just government, which impartially secures to every man, whatever is his own. (James Madison)


    As I have stated private property rules that ban guns do not actually divorce the gun owner from their personal property. The gun remains in the gun owners possession at all times.


    Private Property:

    (12) To acquire, have and use the means necessary to exercise the above natural rights and pursue happiness, specifically including:

    (1) A private residence, from which others may be excluded.

    (2) Tools needed for one's livelihood.

    (3) Personal property, which others may be denied the use of.

    (4) Arms suitable for personal and community defense.
    Constitutional Rights, Powers and Duties


    Bringing a weapon onto someone elses property is an intrusion. The Government does not have the right to intrude on our real property (without specific legal reasons) and neither due private citizens.

    Constitution: List of constitutional rights 12. Exclusion of government actors from intrusion into one's real property, body, or use of one's personal property, for search, seizure, or for any other reason, without consent, a declared state of war or emergency threat to public, safety, a warrant supported by an affidavit of probable cause, and just compensation for any losses incurred, for each incident.



    "The three great rights are so bound together as to be essentially one right. To give a man his life,
    but deny him his liberty, is to take from him all that makes his life worth living. To give him his liberty,
    but take from him the property which is the fruit and badge of his liberty,
    is to still leave him a slave."
    - George Sutherland, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, 1921.

  5. #455
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    If you don't like guns in your store, don't carry one.

  6. #456
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    As I've said before, I'm perfectly okay with a store owner telling me I can't carry into his place of business...


    ... as long as his denial of my right to self-defense means he is 100% liable for any harm I suffer due to crime while in his property, or going to or from between his front door and my car.

    If he disarms me, then he should provide for my safety while I'm there, and be liable for his failure to do so if I come to criminal harm.
    See I don't accept those terms because the point is to not be a victim in the first place, not receive compensation for damages.

    If the store owner says I "can't" carry in his store, I'm going to carry anyway. You see, despite what any property owner says, I actually can carry. It's his job to catch me.

    I have no obligation to any private property owner.
    Last edited by Jerry; 09-18-12 at 02:03 PM.

  7. #457
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    By leaving your weapon in your vehicle you have assumed a certain amount of risk as a trade off for permission to enter the property. You still have the choice to not to enter the property if you feel inclined. And a sign stating that you are entering the property at your own risk would deny your claim of liability as long as the sign or even a verbal warning was issued that crossed all the T's and doted all of the legal I's. Any law that gave gun owners special liability privileges over non gun owners would be obviously exploited.


    Again the point is that you are not required to enter someone elses property even if that establishment is the only one of its type around. If you do not feel safe going somewhere without a gun then for your own safety do not go to such places.
    Permission was given when you unlocked the front door and turned on the "open" sign. It's then up to you to rescind that permission individually. If you tell me to leave because I'm carrying in your store, then I interpret that as a fault on my part for not concealing properly.

  8. #458
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    A business has the legal right to stop patrons form engaging in activity that the establishment was not designed for. This means that what you wear can get you restricted from entering a business. In a theater loud talking can get your thrown out despite the Constructional right to free speech. Even in the most gun rights friendly establishment you will not be able to walk around with a gun in your hand. No mater how much you want to you may not go in the ladies room if you are male. Ypu cannot just walk into a Christian church and start preaching about allah, and if you did you would soon find yourself outside.

    You simply cannot do whatever you please on someone elses property.
    In Florida, for example, gun-buster signs are illegal. You, as the business owner, are not permitted to ban lawfully carried firearms from your property when that property is open to the public. You can be fined for trying.

    The reason behind the law is that only the State has the authority to ban firearms from publicly accessible places.

    A business owner can still require that all such firearms be concealed, however, just as they can require shoes and shirt.

  9. #459
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    If someone refused to leave the premises after being kicked out for violating the policy, they'd be arrested for trespassing.
    Unless the policy itself brakes the law.

  10. #460
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Unless the policy itself brakes the law.
    If the policy breaks the law, then the issue still has nothing to do with rights being violated, though.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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