View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #431
    Student Airborne375's Avatar
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    When you entered the property you chose to agree to the park rules which is a legal agreement. Since you lied and did not follow the park rules are now in breech of a legal agreement. You will be surrounded by park security at this point and required to give up your bag and it will be returned to you by the police. The park security has the duty to protect everyone from you since you have no valid reason to have a gun in a park where you legally agreed to not bring a weapon. SO obviously your intent is not good in the first place. You are personal threat to everyone in the park. Since you refused to leave and have a gun on your person security will most likely close the park or if its huge like Disney parks they will close a large portion of the park.


    The police would respond quickly since everyone knows that no sane person would enter such park with a a damn gun ans that no responsible gun owner would ever put them self in that situation. You will be arrested on the spot and go to jail. You will be charged with criminal trespass for disobeying an legal agreement by entering with a gun. Next the park will sue you for lost revenue. And if you refused the arrest you will be charged accordingly.

    In your other example the person in control of the property can still call the police and have them remove you. Since you sat down like some fool and refused to move you are no longer a patron.
    You can not loiter on any property and get away with it if the person in control of the property does not allow it. You can at this point be banned from the property. And business like Club 21 has the resources to fight any law suit you can muster against them. Now if its a mom and pop business you are **** out of luck since many laws do not apply to them since they do not meet the size requirements.
    Ok looks like we disagree concerning the legality of a company policy. Personal property laws, the 'duty' of private security.

    Lets see if Tucker wants a swing at the ball before I answer fully.

    I'm hardly claiming to be an expert. I have been in the security business before. As a unarmed security guard, a security supervisor, an executive bodyguard and bouncer. I also owned a 'small change' security company. However what we really need for this discussion is a prosecutor, a civil attorney or a cop. Just wanted to be clear that I'm just poking sticks at the 'problem' in the dark here. I mention this because someone could easily pop up and say, "I'm a lawyer and your full of crap." and everyone will realize I am indeed full of crap or rather opinions. Laws vary from state to state so what I'm accustomed to may not be a particular states laws or the laws could have changed. I've been out of the security business for a long time now.

    Thanks for the reply, we now have something to sink into.
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
    It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. - Andrew Jackson
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  2. #432
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    This is a policy sign. No one ever broke any company policy 'guidelines' and got arrested for it unless the guideline was backed up by an actual law.
    If someone refused to leave the premises after being kicked out for violating the policy, they'd be arrested for trespassing.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  3. #433
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Are you laughing at me because I womped your butt right off the boat and into the crocodile infested waters?
    I'm laughing because you have been proven wrong every way possible, but still have the delusional belief that you're right.

    If your going to abandon a point to jump to another, at least don't be so smug as to try and rub my face into it. :P
    What point are you imagining that I have abandoned?
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  4. #434
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Ok looks like we disagree concerning the legality of a company policy. Personal property laws, the 'duty' of private security.

    Lets see if Tucker wants a swing at the ball before I answer fully.

    I'm hardly claiming to be an expert. I have been in the security business before. As a unarmed security guard, a security supervisor, an executive bodyguard and bouncer. I also owned a 'small change' security company. However what we really need for this discussion is a prosecutor, a civil attorney or a cop. Just wanted to be clear that I'm just poking sticks at the 'problem' in the dark here. I mention this because someone could easily pop up and say, "I'm a lawyer and your full of crap." and everyone will realize I am indeed full of crap or rather opinions. Laws vary from state to state so what I'm accustomed to may not be a particular states laws or the laws could have changed. I've been out of the security business for a long time now.

    Thanks for the reply, we now have something to sink into.
    We're talking about whether or not a companies private policy relates to the bill of rights in any way. The answer is that they don't.

    Why would anyone need to be an attorney or a cop to know something that is very self-evident based on the preamble of the bill of rights?
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  5. #435
    Anti political parties
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Ok looks like we disagree concerning the legality of a company policy. Personal property laws, the 'duty' of private security.

    Lets see if Tucker wants a swing at the ball before I answer fully.

    I'm hardly claiming to be an expert. I have been in the security business before. As a unarmed security guard, a security supervisor, an executive bodyguard and bouncer. I also owned a 'small change' security company. However what we really need for this discussion is a prosecutor, a civil attorney or a cop. Just wanted to be clear that I'm just poking sticks at the 'problem' in the dark here. I mention this because someone could easily pop up and say, "I'm a lawyer and your full of crap." and everyone will realize I am indeed full of crap or rather opinions. Laws vary from state to state so what I'm accustomed to may not be a particular states laws or the laws could have changed. I've been out of the security business for a long time now.

    Thanks for the reply, we now have something to sink into.
    Yes the States have different laws. For example in New Mexico a property owner has the right to tell a person with a weapon to leave. And why shouldnt a property owner have the right to tell a person with a weapon to leave?

  6. #436
    Student Airborne375's Avatar
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm laughing because you have been proven wrong every way possible, but still have the delusional belief that you're right.



    What point are you imagining that I have abandoned?
    Precise use of the language is important in any discussion concerning the law. Terms like 'Kicked out' and 'Proven' are worth quibbling over because they change the whole meaning of a discussion when wielded like a hammer as opposed to a scalpel.

    You jumped horses when you switched from a 'No Shirt, No Shoes' issue to another dress code not covered by the Health Department. One is forced upon a business where the other is preference concerning who a business wants to allow on their property. These are two different issues.

    What was proven when? I asked for you to show me a law concerning the legality of a backpack and you shied away. I challenged your opinion on the no shirts sign, and you switched horses. Those would be points (Plural)
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
    It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. - Andrew Jackson
    Sue Sponte - Motto

  7. #437
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Yes the States have different laws. For example in New Mexico a property owner has the right to tell a person with a weapon to leave. And why shouldnt a property owner have the right to tell a person with a weapon to leave?
    The problem here is that some people have the thoroughly misguided belief that the property owner is violating the second amendment by making that request, but that belief is entirely false because the second amendment (like all of the amendments in the bill of rights) is simply a restriction on governmental authority.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  8. #438
    Student Airborne375's Avatar
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    We're talking about whether or not a companies private policy relates to the bill of rights in any way. The answer is that they don't.

    Why would anyone need to be an attorney or a cop to know something that is very self-evident based on the preamble of the bill of rights?
    Cops know when they can arrest someone or not.
    Attorneys know when someone actually broke a law or not.

    I never said anyone 'needed' either, I said either would be better qualified than I to have actual real world answers to the question of which right trumps which and under which circumstances.
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
    It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. - Andrew Jackson
    Sue Sponte - Motto

  9. #439
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Precise use of the language is important in any discussion concerning the law. Terms like 'Kicked out' and 'Proven' are worth quibbling over because they change the whole meaning of a discussion when wielded like a hammer as opposed to a scalpel.
    We're not talking about laws, we're talking about company policies and whether or not they can potentially violate the rights described in teh bill of rights, which they can't.


    You jumped horses when you switched from a 'No Shirt, No Shoes' issue to another dress code not covered by the Health Department. One is forced upon a business where the other is preference concerning who a business wants to allow on their property. These are two different issues.
    Did you forget your example with the t-shirt? The backpack?

    And the no shirt no shoes no service thing is not just a health department thing. You've made the claim that it is a health department thing, but you pretty much just made that up because, as I have noted, places that are not under the jurisdiction of the health department have that same kind of policy and more (like the example I provided).

    What was proven when?
    You were proven incorrect when I provided evidence that you were incorrect.


    I asked for you to show me a law concerning the legality of a backpack and you shied away.
    False. You asked: "Your going to have to show me where a backpack is LEGALLY prohibited anywhere."

    You just made the argument that we need to be precise in our language, yet here you are trying to pretend that teh above statment is the same as saying "you are going to have to show me where a backpack is prohibited BY LAW anywhere" when they are extremely different statements.

    It's LEGAL for a business to prohibit the wearing of backpacks. That is to say, if a business prohibits backpacks, and it is legal for them to do so, then backpacks are LEGALLY prohibited by that company as opposed to being ILLEGALLY prohibited by that company.

    You did not ask for a law that prohibits backpacks in certain places. Which is good, because we aren't talking about laws, we are talking about company policies.



    I challenged your opinion on the no shirts sign, and you switched horses.
    I pointed out that you were wrong in your assumptions about dress code policies and then offered absolute proof of your flawed assumptions. How is that "switching horses".

    Those would be points (Plural)
    But they are imaginary points.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  10. #440
    Student Airborne375's Avatar
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The problem here is that some people have the thoroughly misguided belief that the property owner is violating the second amendment by making that request, but that belief is entirely false because the second amendment (like all of the amendments in the bill of rights) is simply a restriction on governmental authority.
    And we've come full circle again. You say certain bill of rights issues are set into stone yet others can be altered. Anyone who knows that the second amendment is part of the constitution has a 'direct' idea. Way to butcher the language.

    You've spammed up the forum by posting 3,000 times in a row and now are just swimming in circles. Keep swimming. I'm going to watch a bit.
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
    It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. - Andrew Jackson
    Sue Sponte - Motto

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