View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #421
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Why split hairs about the term thrown out? You could just look up the laws and then you would have known that its slang for legally removing the patron from the premises. There's an entire legal procedure for doing such things. Which as you mention ends with the cops showing up. Since what I am talking about are actual laws on the books then the cops would make you leave. And since the cops were needed you possibly just earned yourself a ban from the property and any future time that you show up and get caught you will be charged with trespassing.


    Again it is silly to concentrate on the term thrown out as if my argument involves illegal behavior.


    My point is that the person in control of the private property has the right to make the rules for that property as long as they follow all of the laws pertaining to their business. And what I said above is that you cannot expect to be allowed into a restaurant that only allows formal wear if you have jeans on. Clearly it is legal for the restaurant to refuse you service for violating the rules that they set for the type of business that they are engaging in.

    Disney World Prohibited Items and Dress Codes

    A store may legally prohibit the patrons from bringing items into the store. For example back packs are legally prohibited from many stores. Or more to the point like Disney World Weapons of any kind can be prohibited. Dont agree just dont go there dont try to force someone to comply with your wants.
    There is the legal way to eject someone and the illegal. if the cops know better than to arrest you the meaning changes

    I'm going to repeat myself. By your logic a business can discriminate against anyone. Clearly they can't.

    Dress codes are internal policies and not laws. There's a clear display of stupidity regarding that code. What exactly constitutes a weapon? I can tell you a bottle of water is, a soda can certainly is, a 4 year old could kill someone with a ball point pen where he couldn't without one. Weapon, Weapon, Weapon.

    Your going to have to show me where a backpack is LEGALLY prohibited anywhere.

    You can be sued for something you couldn't be prosecuted for.
    You can be prosecuted for things you can't be sued for.

    Were mixing and matching different legal codes and definitions here.
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
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  2. #422
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    I don't believe this has been mentioned yet, but where does the employer's property end and mine begin? If I have a gun in my car, but my car is parked in their lot, who is infringing upon who?

    My car.
    Their lot.

    The whole thing seems silly to me. How long until it escalates further?

    Seems like leaving the gun in the car prevents both parties from having their rights infringed. If the employer does not want cars with certain items in them on their property, then maybe they should reconsider providing parking to their employees.

  3. #423
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Yep, if a business asks you to leave and you don't go they can charge you for trespassing. But if a business asks you to leave and you DO go, you can sue them if your rights are being infringed upon.
    No rights described in the bill of rights can possibly be infringed upon by a business owner, so that's a losing lawsuit.

    The rights contained in the bil of rights cannot be infringed upon by anyone other than the government.

    Company policy means exactly squat when you come up against a law, much more so an amendment.
    It is impossible for a business policy to "come up against" any amendment in the bill of rights.

    You certainly cannot be thrown out for wearing a shirt with a weapon depicted on it or a Glock logo.
    Yes, you can. A business can certainly have attire requirements and restrictions. Many of them do.
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  4. #424
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    There is the legal way to eject someone and the illegal. if the cops know better than to arrest you the meaning changes

    I'm going to repeat myself. By your logic a business can discriminate against anyone. Clearly they can't.

    Dress codes are internal policies and not laws. There's a clear display of stupidity regarding that code. What exactly constitutes a weapon? I can tell you a bottle of water is, a soda can certainly is, a 4 year old could kill someone with a ball point pen where he couldn't without one. Weapon, Weapon, Weapon.

    Your going to have to show me where a backpack is LEGALLY prohibited anywhere.

    You can be sued for something you couldn't be prosecuted for.
    You can be prosecuted for things you can't be sued for.

    Were mixing and matching different legal codes and definitions here.
    By my logic? Just because you think that you have a case to sue someone does not mean that you do. Clearly the rules that I linked from Disney World are not laws. Why you would make such a nonsensical comparison is beyond me. The truth of the matter is that legally private property owners can make rules for the well being of their property and everyone that goes on it. Obviously the rules that a property owner makes must follow the Constitution, Federal, State and local laws.

    Incredibly you are arguing the rules of Disney World as if they cannot make any rules for their theme park. Perhaps you should test that theory? And a weapon is a weapon what is hard to understand about any legal definition of a weapon? No one is talking about anything other than a legal definition of a weapon in the Disney World rules on prohibited items allowed on their property.
    If you want to go into Disney World you will follow their rules or you will not be permitted to enter. If you feel that the rules violate any law you can take them to court and play with their lawyers all you want, but that still does not show that you are correct right now in this debate.

    My point is easily provable that property owners can and do legally make rules that all patrons or anyone wanting to enter the property must follow. Backpacks can be prohibited from a store because a backpack owner is not a class of people. Everyone can own a backpack and no law protects backpack owners from being discriminated against. Backpacks have nothing to do with anything considered civil rights.

  5. #425
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Your going to have to show me where a backpack is LEGALLY prohibited anywhere.
    Many nightclubs would refuse entry to a person wearing a backpack. Hell, they won't let you in if you are wearing a hat or gym shoes.
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  6. #426
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    21 Club, New York City / Famous NYC Restaurant with Banquet Rooms - Hours and Dress Code

    I'm sure that "Jackets are necessary for gentlemen. Jeans and sneakers are not permitted." is something that the health department forced upon the business, though.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  7. #427
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Your running all kinds of sideways here.


    Anyone can sue anyone else whenever the right courthouse is open, there are ramifications that will make the possibly undesirable outcome not worth the possible gain.

    There is a filing fee. Without this I could sue you right now (If I knew who you are and the courthouse where you live was open.)

    If you sue me, I can counter sue. It there is found to be no basis for your original lawsuit winning a false claim suit is a gimme.


    When we speak of business we speak of money. If you own a business you do not want to give anyone a valid reason to sue you. Losing a lawsuit is very bad for business. When we speak of acts that violate a persons rights, we are speaking if lawsuits and civil actions (Civil/Civic? I forget which). Meaning if I am breaking no laws, all you can do is call the police and try to convince them to arrest me.

    If I happen to be breaking a law, and we are talking about something actually illegal the police can indeed arrest me. By illegal I am not speaking of what Mickey Mouse scrawled on a 30 foot high neon wall. Laws.

    Trespassing and Disturbing the peace are typical misdemeanor crimes that are basically there for the police to have something to arrest people for in these sorts of incidence. If the police will arrest you, which is at their discretion. If they see trouble with a 1st amendment 'conflict' they won't bother with the piddly charges OR they may hold you on disturbing the peace until that charge can be upgraded to *Whatever*.

    Let me throw something out here to refocus the discussion, If I may.

    You own a humongous amusement park somewhere. I get through your security and you personally see a pistol in my dufflebag when I move to store my new t-shirt. You tell someone and security arrives, when they do I sit down and do nothing but smile at you with an annoying smug look on my face.

    What happens next?

    Let me quickly address Tucker here as it's the same point. The Park can easily stop me from entering. If push comes to shove they will stand in my way and if I brush against them, file an assault charge. This will let the police arrest me for assault and away to the cop shop I go. See easy. By physically preventing me from entering, you don't have to deal with the 'trouble' involved in making me leave. If I try and push past you, I've assaulted you. When I assault you the fact I wanted to enter into your park becomes a moot point. This is important because since I broke a law, I am the legal system's problem and no longer yours.


    I enter the 21 Club. I'm wearing shorts, flip flops and no shirt. Someone sees me juuuuust inside the door and I sit and grin. What happens?
    How about juuuuust outside the door?
    How about inside the door and I'm wearing a turtleneck sweater with an image of something clearly lewd and obviously intended to offend on it. I'm also wearing flip flops and shorts. What happens?

    Just an idea as we may actually get somewhere if we refocus the conversation.
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
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  8. #428
    Student Airborne375's Avatar
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    21 Club, New York City / Famous NYC Restaurant with Banquet Rooms - Hours and Dress Code

    I'm sure that "Jackets are necessary for gentlemen. Jeans and sneakers are not permitted." is something that the health department forced upon the business, though.
    This is a policy sign. No one ever broke any company policy 'guidelines' and got arrested for it unless the guideline was backed up by an actual law. Getting someone off the premises becomes a cost / benefit analysis sort of decision. Sure you can have someone who violates the policy and insists on being seated arrested at the risk of.:

    Offending your other customers.
    Getting bad (or good) publicity.
    Zeroing yourself in for 'troublemakers'.
    Everything else a nightclub owner has to worry about on a day to day basis in order to bring in business.

    If the business owner CAN overlook their own policy, chance are they will. Arbitrarily you can be instant lawsuit lightning attracting business if you appear to have discriminated against someone. Some places can't afford to ignore their own policies because it can be the beginning of the end for some policies and the clients have come to expect you to enforce your own policies. Can't tick them off either.
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
    It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. - Andrew Jackson
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  9. #429
    Student Airborne375's Avatar
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    21 Club, New York City / Famous NYC Restaurant with Banquet Rooms - Hours and Dress Code

    I'm sure that "Jackets are necessary for gentlemen. Jeans and sneakers are not permitted." is something that the health department forced upon the business, though.
    Are you laughing at me because I womped your butt right off the boat and into the crocodile infested waters?

    If your going to abandon a point to jump to another, at least don't be so smug as to try and rub my face into it. :P
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
    It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. - Andrew Jackson
    Sue Sponte - Motto

  10. #430
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Your running all kinds of sideways here.


    Anyone can sue anyone else whenever the right courthouse is open, there are ramifications that will make the possibly undesirable outcome not worth the possible gain.

    There is a filing fee. Without this I could sue you right now (If I knew who you are and the courthouse where you live was open.)

    If you sue me, I can counter sue. It there is found to be no basis for your original lawsuit winning a false claim suit is a gimme.


    When we speak of business we speak of money. If you own a business you do not want to give anyone a valid reason to sue you. Losing a lawsuit is very bad for business. When we speak of acts that violate a persons rights, we are speaking if lawsuits and civil actions (Civil/Civic? I forget which). Meaning if I am breaking no laws, all you can do is call the police and try to convince them to arrest me.

    If I happen to be breaking a law, and we are talking about something actually illegal the police can indeed arrest me. By illegal I am not speaking of what Mickey Mouse scrawled on a 30 foot high neon wall. Laws.

    Trespassing and Disturbing the peace are typical misdemeanor crimes that are basically there for the police to have something to arrest people for in these sorts of incidence. If the police will arrest you, which is at their discretion. If they see trouble with a 1st amendment 'conflict' they won't bother with the piddly charges OR they may hold you on disturbing the peace until that charge can be upgraded to *Whatever*.

    Let me throw something out here to refocus the discussion, If I may.

    You own a humongous amusement park somewhere. I get through your security and you personally see a pistol in my dufflebag when I move to store my new t-shirt. You tell someone and security arrives, when they do I sit down and do nothing but smile at you with an annoying smug look on my face.

    What happens next?

    Let me quickly address Tucker here as it's the same point. The Park can easily stop me from entering. If push comes to shove they will stand in my way and if I brush against them, file an assault charge. This will let the police arrest me for assault and away to the cop shop I go. See easy. By physically preventing me from entering, you don't have to deal with the 'trouble' involved in making me leave. If I try and push past you, I've assaulted you. When I assault you the fact I wanted to enter into your park becomes a moot point. This is important because since I broke a law, I am the legal system's problem and no longer yours.


    I enter the 21 Club. I'm wearing shorts, flip flops and no shirt. Someone sees me juuuuust inside the door and I sit and grin. What happens?
    How about juuuuust outside the door?
    How about inside the door and I'm wearing a turtleneck sweater with an image of something clearly lewd and obviously intended to offend on it. I'm also wearing flip flops and shorts. What happens?

    Just an idea as we may actually get somewhere if we refocus the conversation.
    When you entered the property you chose to agree to the park rules which is a legal agreement. Since you lied and did not follow the park rules are now in breech of a legal agreement. You will be surrounded by park security at this point and required to give up your bag and it will be returned to you by the police. The park security has the duty to protect everyone from you since you have no valid reason to have a gun in a park where you legally agreed to not bring a weapon. SO obviously your intent is not good in the first place. You are personal threat to everyone in the park. Since you refused to leave and have a gun on your person security will most likely close the park or if its huge like Disney parks they will close a large portion of the park.


    The police would respond quickly since everyone knows that no sane person would enter such park with a a damn gun ans that no responsible gun owner would ever put them self in that situation. You will be arrested on the spot and go to jail. You will be charged with criminal trespass for disobeying an legal agreement by entering with a gun. Next the park will sue you for lost revenue. And if you refused the arrest you will be charged accordingly.

    In your other example the person in control of the property can still call the police and have them remove you. Since you sat down like some fool and refused to move you are no longer a patron.
    You can not loiter on any property and get away with it if the person in control of the property does not allow it. You can at this point be banned from the property. And business like Club 21 has the resources to fight any law suit you can muster against them. Now if its a mom and pop business you are **** out of luck since many laws do not apply to them since they do not meet the size requirements.

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